A thought for the day

[Coreless_Serenity]

Here's a thought for the day:

If Satan is so evil, then why does he punish bad people?

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Coreless_Serenity

If Satan is so evil, then why does he punish bad people?

A thought on par with that: if God is so great, then why does he punish good people?

[Xujhan]

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?

[Of Mike and Men]

Where does the Bible say Satan punishes people?

[falling_like_stars]

This is a good point. Also, God loves his children, which include all of the humans on Earth. However, he's also supposed to be responsible for all the things that happen. What I would like to know is why he gives small children in Africa AIDS if he loves them. And if God preaches forgiveness, why does hell exist in the first place? There's no need to punish if you forgive.

[Troubled_Heart]

Why does God punish those that are not perfect when he made it possible for us to be unperfect in the first place? That said, sometimes I do respect God and in times of badness I do think of him...

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by falling_like_stars

Also, God loves his children, which include all of the humans on Earth.

This isn't true.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (KJV)

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (KJV)

If all people are God's children, verses such as these two above, are completely useless.

[Jocelyn.]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?

...or how the sun rises and sets. Seriously, god only knows where that thing goes at night.

[Lugez]

Originally Posted by Coreless_Serenity

If Satan is so evil, then why does he punish bad people?

Because he's evil.

[Megan1]

Why is satan bad for punishing bad people?
Satan doesn't punish anyone. The bible doesn't say that.

Satan was originally an angel in Heaven, but decided that he wanted to rebel against God and go his own way. God will never force someone to follow Him, so He kicked satan out of Heaven and satan no longer had to follow God. God made a place called hell for satan and all of the angels who followed satan. Hell was not originally made for humans. But once God made the Earth and humans, the humans decided to follow satan (a.k.a. they decided to sin) instead of follow God (a.k.a. living a perfect sinless life) .....because of the fact that humans are following satan, they are going to end up being lead to hell. However, God made a way out- He sent Jesus to save us by taking our sins away and giving us a second chance to follow Him. If someone chooses to follow satan, they are going to end up in hell. Not because satan is punishing them, but because followers of satan can't go to a perfect place like Heaven and hell is the only other place they can go. Satan is the one who tempts people to be bad in the first place.

If God is good, why does He punish good people?
God does not punish good people- because a "good person" does not exist. Every person is bad to at least some extent because we all have sinned. God gives us all a choice with the bad that we have inside of us: either you can go to hell forever to pay for those things, or you can turn away from your sins and trust in Him to take the sins away. He gives us that choice, and I call that more than fair.

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?
I don't really know the answer to this question or very much about science.....I'm not even sure if this is a serious question....but I do know that a lot of Christians do not agree with Bill O'Reilly's teachings, so be careful listening to what he says.

Why does God punish those that are not perfect when he made it impossible for us to be perfect in the first place?
God did not make it impossible for us to be perfect. He made it very possible. Yes He put the tree in the Garden of Eden to test Adam and Eve and told them not to eat from it.....but the reason that He gave them that temptation was so that they could choose to love/obey Him. He didn't want to force them, because true love is a choice, so He wanted them to choose it. However, He did provide them with a way to avoid the temptation and live a perfect Godly life if they wanted to.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Megan1

If God is good, why does He punish good people?
God does not punish good people- because a "good person" does not exist. Every person is bad to at least some extent because we all have sinned. God gives us all a choice with the bad that we have inside of us: either you can go to hell forever to pay for those things, or you can turn away from your sins and trust in Him to take the sins away. He gives us that choice, and I call that more than fair.

You contradicted yourself there. If "good" people don't exist, according to you, and everyone has the option of being "good" (or "perfect", as you so defend later on), then does that mean that in your opinion, nobody goes to heaven?

Originally Posted by Megan1

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?
I don't really know the answer to this question or very much about science.....I'm not even sure if this is a serious question....but I do know that a lot of Christians do not agree with Bill O'Reilly's teachings, so be careful listening to what he says.

Bill O'Reilly doesn't have "teachings", he has opinions. And he also happens to say those opinions (however foolish they may be) on television, frequently. It's a joke, you can stop being so critical and authoritative.

Originally Posted by Megan1

Why does God punish those that are not perfect when he made it impossible for us to be perfect in the first place?
God did not make it impossible for us to be perfect. He made it very possible.

Okay, so you're pretty firm on this point -- it's possible to be "perfect". Which, I assume, includes "good" -- but a "good person" doesn't exist, right? Hm. So it's possible...but nobody "chooses" to follow through?

[Megan1]

We are all bad people and nobody goes to Heaven on their own. However, you can get the bad taken out of you and go to Heaven by believing in God's grace that He will take us there even though we don't deserve it.

Okay well many Christians don't agree with his "opinions". I have never listened to him so I'm not saying if his opinions are right or wrong....I'm just saying that I have heard that some of his opinions don't follow the bible, so be cautious and don't automatically think that everything he says is from the bible.

I see how what I said in that last part would confuse you; I didn't say it very cleary. God originally made it possible for humans to be perfect, back when He made Adam and Eve. They chose not to follow Him, so they became imperfect. All of us after them inherited sin from them when we were born (according to the bible), so no, nobody today could be perfect.....but not because God didn't let us be perfect.....it if because Adam and Eve blew that chance that God gave us. But most if not all of us have sinned on our own too, so it's not like we wouldn't have chosen sin anyways- because we did. Does that make more sense?

[Youth Pastor]

It's a spiritual battle. Satan hates humans with a passion so he's trying to get people to stay out of Heaven which is what God has made available to people by accepting Christ. Satan has already lost the spiritual war so he's trying to bring everyone down to him before people accept Christ and before Christ comes back.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Youth Pastor

It's a spiritual battle. Satan hates humans with a passion so he's trying to get people to stay out of Heaven which is what God has made available to people by accepting Christ.

Satan refused to bow to God because he saw that God was misleading Humanity. Satan doesn't hate humanity, quite the opposite, he wants us to learn our own truth and come to our own conclusions, not follow blindly. He only ever waged a war against God, how does that reflect his hatred of humanity?

When you actually read the Bible, you see God committs a number of Genocides and mass murders, or it was people who God commanded to kill. I haven't read anywhere in the Bible where Satan has killed anyone.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Megan1

God originally made it possible for humans to be perfect, back when He made Adam and Eve. They chose not to follow Him, so they became imperfect. All of us after them inherited sin from them when we were born (according to the bible), so no, nobody today could be perfect.....but not because God didn't let us be perfect.....it if because Adam and Eve blew that chance that God gave us.

I'm going to hold off on criticizing this until I ask you a few questions:

•Do you believe that God is all-knowing, and in that, knew what would happen with humans, before he actually put all of it in motion?

If you answered "Yes", do you think it is very wise of him to have given us a chance he knew that we'd be punished for rejecting, later on?**

If you answered "No" to the first question, do you think that God truly deserves the title of "God" if he doesn't have infinite foresight -- no omniscience? What, then, gives us authority to say that he has omnipotence?

**By the way, saying that "God has reasons that we can't comprehend" is a cop-out. It's called the "fallacy by dismissal".

[Megan1]

I know that He could have known what Adam and Eve would choose if He wanted to know......but I also believe that He could keep Himself from knowing if He wanted to wait and see what they did. I don't know if He knew ahead of time or not, but I knew that He could have if He wanted to. I'd guess that He probably did know before it happened. If you're asking why He would let them choose if He knew they would choose the wrong thing, I think it's because if He didn't let us make choices and forced us to do the right thing, we could never truly love Him since love is a choice. If He didn't give us choices, we would just be mindless robots that He controled. That wasn't His plan for us. The bible says that humans were MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOVING GOD. If we didn't get to choose Him, we couldn't love Him.

[Lugez]

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?

I laughed at the video because he completely failed with his point. But everyone is a bit harsh. I think he was trying to say "Why does the universe work so perfectly with no mistakes?" You can answer with science, but you can't answer why science works. Why does existence itself work the way it does? This is was good ol' Bill was trying to say I think (not saying I agree because I know that hardly proves God's existence). His delivery was just god-awful.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Why is satan bad for punishing bad people?
Satan doesn't punish anyone. The bible doesn't say that.

Satan was originally an angel in Heaven, but decided that he wanted to rebel against God and go his own way. God will never force someone to follow Him, so He kicked satan out of Heaven and satan no longer had to follow God. God made a place called hell for satan and all of the angels who followed satan. Hell was not originally made for humans. But once God made the Earth and humans, the humans decided to follow satan (a.k.a. they decided to sin) instead of follow God (a.k.a. living a perfect sinless life) .....because of the fact that humans are following satan, they are going to end up being lead to hell. However, God made a way out- He sent Jesus to save us by taking our sins away and giving us a second chance to follow Him. If someone chooses to follow satan, they are going to end up in hell. Not because satan is punishing them, but because followers of satan can't go to a perfect place like Heaven and hell is the only other place they can go. Satan is the one who tempts people to be bad in the first place.

Originally Posted by Megan1

If God is good, why does He punish good people?
God does not punish good people- because a "good person" does not exist. Every person is bad to at least some extent because we all have sinned. God gives us all a choice with the bad that we have inside of us: either you can go to hell forever to pay for those things, or you can turn away from your sins and trust in Him to take the sins away. He gives us that choice, and I call that more than fair.

Fair enough, people are to some degree, "bad". However, as you also stated people do not have the same degree of "badness", which means some are less bad (or good) than others. Just because they're "good" doesn't mean they have no "bad" as "good" doesn't equate with perfect.

Originally Posted by Megan1

If Bill O'Reilly is so smart, how come he still doesn't know where the tides come from?
I don't really know the answer to this question or very much about science.....I'm not even sure if this is a serious question....but I do know that a lot of Christians do not agree with Bill O'Reilly's teachings, so be careful listening to what he says.

In other threads, you kept saying you knew so much about science (in regards to biological evolution) that you refused to accept it both as a fact and as a theory. However, in this thread you say you don't know much about science at all. And no, it's not a serious question. I'm laughing right now when you say to be careful of his "teachings".

Originally Posted by Megan1

Why does God punish those that are not perfect when he made it impossible for us to be perfect in the first place?
God did not make it impossible for us to be perfect. He made it very possible. Yes He put the tree in the Garden of Eden to test Adam and Eve and told them not to eat from it.....but the reason that He gave them that temptation was so that they could choose to love/obey Him. He didn't want to force them, because true love is a choice, so He wanted them to choose it. However, He did provide them with a way to avoid the temptation and live a perfect Godly life if they wanted to.

Originally Posted by Megan1

God originally made it possible for humans to be perfect, back when He made Adam and Eve. They chose not to follow Him, so they became imperfect.

I'm amazed you cannot see the hole in this argument no matter how many times it's been presented to you. The hole is god is said to know everything, hence "testing" Adam and Eve doesn't make any sense because it implies they could choose to do something god, an all-knowing being, didn't know. In other words, this argument rests on the assumption god is not all-knowing. It also ignores this passage, which occurs in the bible right at the time of Adam and Eve's story. The bold is the key part:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Genesis 3:1)

Originally Posted by Megan1

All of us after them inherited sin from them when we were born (according to the bible), so no, nobody today could be perfect.....but not because God didn't let us be perfect

I'm puzzled over this because you previously said:

"you can get the bad taken out of you and go to Heaven by believing in God's grace"

If all the "bad" is taken out, then it leaves only good, otherwise perfect.

Originally Posted by Youth Pastor

It's a spiritual battle. Satan hates humans with a passion so he's trying to get people to stay out of Heaven which is what God has made available to people by accepting Christ. Satan has already lost the spiritual war so he's trying to bring everyone down to him before people accept Christ and before Christ comes back.

It could also be Satan hates god and is trying to benefit humans in a way god disapproves.

Originally Posted by Megan1

I know that He could have known what Adam and Eve would choose if He wanted to know......but I also believe that He could keep Himself from knowing if He wanted to wait and see what they did. I don't know if He knew ahead of time or not, but I knew that He could have if He wanted to. I'd guess that He probably did know before it happened.

This is a turn I didn't expect, you say god is all-knowing but somehow made himself ignorant. You've created a new version of the question, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". In this case the question is, "did god already know or did his ability to do anything come first and make him ignorant?".

Originally Posted by Megan1

If you're asking why He would let them choose if He knew they would choose the wrong thing, I think it's because if He didn't let us make choices and forced us to do the right thing, we could never truly love Him since love is a choice.

If god can create a universe including Earth with its inhabitants, I'm sure he could force humans to experience an emotion he gave them. To say otherwise sounds silly and makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Megan1

If He didn't give us choices, we would just be mindless robots that He controled. That wasn't His plan for us. The bible says that humans were MADE FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOVING GOD. If we didn't get to choose Him, we couldn't love Him.

So instead of forcing people to love him (god), he decided to create a set of things not to do and have humans write a bunch of books with his transcribed words that included all of his rage he'd bring if people didn't believe. It's like a shotgun wedding, someone has a gun to your head and wants you to say "yes". You could say "no" but you'll die. In other words, it's not a free choice, it's biased toward believing in god. Read just about any part of the bible, if you don't believe in god, he punishes you, clearly not a free choice.

[kayla1234]

I find this whole conversation pretty interesting...

Originally Posted by Megan1

We are all bad people and nobody goes to Heaven on their own. However, you can get the bad taken out of you and go to Heaven by believing in God's grace that He will take us there even though we don't deserve it.

Do you mean to say that the only way to remove sin from ourselves and get into heaven is to believe in God? If we are all of God's children and God is all powerful then why are there countries in which children are born into the world with absolutely zero opportunity to learn that Christianity even exists. Regardless if they know, if they are strictly taught another religion from birth God gave them no real chance to relieve themselves of their sin...

[TheNumber42]

Originally Posted by Lugez

I laughed at the video because he completely failed with his point. But everyone is a bit harsh. I think he was trying to say "Why does the universe work so perfectly with no mistakes?" You can answer with science, but you can't answer why science works. Why does existence itself work the way it does? This is was good ol' Bill was trying to say I think (not saying I agree because I know that hardly proves God's existence). His delivery was just god-awful.

I'm sure I'm going to butcher explaining this, but I'll give it a shot.

Basically, there is a chance, however small, that anything will happen. Essentially nothing is truly impossible, some things are just astronomically unlikely. Our unique set of circumstances may seem to be one of those very unlikely things (and it is), but it couldn't be any other way. For us to observe things as they are they have to be as they are. We can't observe something if we don't exist, and for us to exist all of the conditions we would be hoping to observe must also exist. To us, it seems like an absolute miracle that everything is so perfect, but we don't exist to observe the more probable conditions in the billions of other places/dimensions/possibilities/whatever-you-want-to-call-them where it didn't work out. We can only observe the one place where it did, so our perception is somewhat skewed. We don't really have any recognition of all the times something didn't work out because it's only possible for us to observe the one time they did.

Anyway, I'm sorry I explained that so poorly. It's clear in my mind, but it's a hard concept for me to put in words, especially this early in the morning :P

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Fair enough, people are to some degree, "bad". However, as you also stated people do not have the same degree of "badness", which means some are less bad (or good) than others. Just because they're "good" doesn't mean they have no "bad" as "good" doesn't equate with perfect.

Well, when the bible says "good", it seems to mean "containing no evil". That's what I was referring to. Yes there are nice people and there are kind people, you are right.....but even those people have some evil in them that they need to be saved from in order to get to Heaven....and they can't do that on their own; only Jesus can do it.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

In other threads, you kept saying you knew so much about science (in regards to biological evolution) that you refused to accept it both as a fact and as a theory. However, in this thread you say you don't know much about science at all. And no, it's not a serious question. I'm laughing right now when you say to be careful of his "teachings".

I never said that I knew a lot about science. I tried to explain the little that I knew about evolution in previous threads, but then found out that I had confused some things and admitted that I didn't know very much about it. That issue was resolved several months ago. I have since had it explained to me and know what I do and don't believe on the subject....but that is off topic from this.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'm amazed you cannot see the hole in this argument no matter how many times it's been presented to you. The hole is god is said to know everything, hence "testing" Adam and Eve doesn't make any sense because it implies they could choose to do something god, an all-knowing being, didn't know. In other words, this argument rests on the assumption god is not all-knowing. It also ignores this passage, which occurs in the bible right at the time of Adam and Eve's story. The bold is the key part:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Genesis 3:1)

God is all-knowing. Even if He knew what they were going to choose, He still had to let them choose.....because if He didn't let us choose things, we couldn't choose to love Him. Yes Adam and Eve chose to go against Him, but after they made that mistake, they did eventually choose to turn to Him and love Him. I believe He knew that that would happen: that they would first turn away from Him, but eventually would turn back to Him. He knew that He had to wait for them to choose themselves in order for them to love Him because love is a choice.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'm puzzled over this because you previously said:

"you can get the bad taken out of you and go to Heaven by believing in God's grace"

If all the "bad" is taken out, then it leaves only good, otherwise perfect.

When I said "nobody can be perfect", what I really meant is "nobody can be perfect on their own". Your soul can be made perfect through Jesus taking your sins away; you can't do it on your own.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

This is a turn I didn't expect, you say god is all-knowing but somehow made himself ignorant. You've created a new version of the question, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". In this case the question is, "did god already know or did his ability to do anything come first and make him ignorant?".

I'm not saying that God did make Himself ignorant; I'm just saying that He could if He chose to wait and see what happened. Not claiming that He did, but God is powerful enough that He could if He wanted to.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If god can create a universe including Earth with its inhabitants, I'm sure he could force humans to experience an emotion he gave them. To say otherwise sounds silly and makes no sense.

Love (according to the bible) isn't an emotion though. Love is a choice. God could force them to feel whatever He wanted them to feel, but love isn't a feeling. Could God force them to choose Him? Sure, but then they wouldn't really be choosing it themselves.....so they wouldn't truly be loving Him. God wants willing hearts to love Him, which He can't have if He forces us.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

So instead of forcing people to love him (god), he decided to create a set of things not to do and have humans write a bunch of books with his transcribed words that included all of his rage he'd bring if people didn't believe. It's like a shotgun wedding, someone has a gun to your head and wants you to say "yes". You could say "no" but you'll die. In other words, it's not a free choice, it's biased toward believing in god. Read just about any part of the bible, if you don't believe in god, he punishes you, clearly not a free choice.

In the old testament, yes, that's how it was- you had to strictly follow the law and make sacrifices when you messed up. Otherwise, you would be punished for every time that you messed up. But now, you just have to accept Jesus' sacrifice that covers ALL of your sins, and turn to God rather than to your old sinful life (although you will still mess up sometimes, everybody does).

We were CREATED to love God and be loved by God. That's why we exist. So if it wasn't for that, we would have never been here in the first place. What you aren't understanding is that our sins are what cause us to spiritually die (a.k.a. go to hell). God doesn't cause that and God originally made us not to have sins. But He let us choose and we chose death. So what did God do? He sent His son to give us a second chance and bring our spirits back to life. God does not cause us to die, but He is the way out.

Your gun analogy is flawed because God is not the one who kills us- satan is by tempting us to sin. God is just the only one who is able to save us, so if we don't take His help, there is no other way out. Once we have sinned, it is like the devil holding a gun to us getting ready to shoot, and God standing next to Him reaching out to save you. God is saying "Reach out to me and I can grab you and pull you away from death. But if you choose not to take my help, you will die because there is no other way out."

Originally Posted by kayla1234

Do you mean to say that the only way to remove sin from ourselves and get into heaven is to believe in God? If we are all of God's children and God is all powerful then why are there countries in which children are born into the world with absolutely zero opportunity to learn that Christianity even exists. Regardless if they know, if they are strictly taught another religion from birth God gave them no real chance to relieve themselves of their sin...

Your sins can be taken away not just by believing in God, but by believing that Jesus is the son of God, that He came and died to pay for our sins, that He rose again 3 days later defeating sin, and by repenting of your sinful life and turning to the life that God has for you.

We are not all God's children. God made all of us, but sin took us away from Him. Only those who have their sins taken away (which anyone can if they choose to) become His children.

As far as people who have never heard of Jesus because of where they live....If it is someone who would accept Jesus if they had the chance to, God often finds ways to show them the truth about Him so they can accept Him. There are SO many stories about muslims in other countries who had never heard of Christianity and then had a dream where God revealed the truth to them and they were saved. There are also many stories about people who prayed for the real God to reveal Himself to them, and shortly afterwards, a missionary came to their country and told them the truth. If someone is meant to find God, He will make a way for them to know about Him....even through a dream.

[Cosmo]

God is a triangle of three characteristics

Omnipotence
Omnibenevloence
Omniscience

Take, for example, the reality of a starving baby in Africa. They haven't been exposed to Christianity, they aren't old enough to understand it or have a chance to commit sin.

Now, God could help that baby. He could provide water. But he doesn't, and he never has done - he's never intervened and helped anybody.

So he's obviously missing one of those three characteristics. He must know that this is happening, he must have the ability to stop this from happening and he must have the love for humans to want to stop this from happening.

And yet he doesn't. Which leads us to the conclusion that he is either missing one of those three characteristics, otherwise these things would not be happening. And that if he is missing one of those three, he is not a God or, at the least, one worth worshipping (Who wants an imperfect God?).

...or we could just play one of the classic Christian copouts. We could say 'free will', 'God doesn't intervene' (which invalidates all miracles in history and the idea of prayer) or, the one that really grates me, 'God is beyond our understanding'. None of these are even slightly valid arguments.

So, now that, hopefully, we've established a few things, here's what I think on the current topic:

First, you have to believe that we truly have free will. While this is up for debate, I'd put forward that, if you believe in an Omniscient God then you believe that God already knows what will happen in any given situation, correct? There is therefore only one conclusion that is valid - that there is only one conclusion. You could argue that he knows all the possible outcomes of a situation, but even if you argue that, there's still only one that will be chosen and if he is all-knowing then he should know what it is.So at this point, I hope we've established that there is only one outcome from all choices. This means that whatever we do, God already knows that it'll happen. Time is, then, totally linear and the idea of 'free will' is nothing more than a comforting thought used to have us feel that much more satisfied with the way we live.


If we then continue with that logic, that time is linear and that there is no real choice if God already knows the one we will make for every given situation, then it seems to me rather odd that God should punish us for a choice that he already knew we would make. We don't have any choice over it - as I said, time is, if God is Omniscient, linear - as any free choice is an illusion. It all seems rather unfair to me, that he should punish us for something we don't have any control over.


Now onto the argument that it's the Devil's fault. The Devil is, supposedly, the root of all evil - so he therefore must be evil, as one cannot spread evil without oneself being evil. Again, God's triangle of characteristics. He should have the ability to stop the devil, he should have the knowledge of what the devil is doing, has done and will do and, most of all, he should want to stop this evil.

Here, most likely, you will present the argument of Free Will. It's a fair argument in most cases, if a bit of a cop-out, except for one situation - pointless evil. Evil that is evil for the sake of being evil. Drought, famine, tidal waves, earthquakes, giant aliens landing and decimating whole countries - none of those are choices and so the idea that God allows this kind of evil to exist is a very, very worrying one as it shows us, again, that he is missing one of those three characteristics - he should have the ability to stop these, the knowledge of when they will happen and he should want to stop them. But he doesn't - and therefore, again, one of those is missing and, again, we are left with an imperfect God.


That's what I think on the subject

[Megan1]

Although babies don't commit sin, they have sin from the time they are born because a sinful nature is passed on when you are born. However, most people believe that if a baby/young child dies, God will take that sinful nature away from them and bring them to Heaven even though they haven't accepted Him because they are too young to do so. The bible isn't completely clear on this, so I don't know exactly how it works with babies....but this is a possibility and is what many people believe. Some people also believe that it goes by whether or not their parents are saved. But that is all speculation; nobody knows for sure how that works.

You can say that God doesn't always help people in need, but you can't say that He never does. There are sooooo many stories of God providing for people in need and providing miracles in situations like this. No it doesn't always happen, but there are many cases where it has. Why does He do it sometimes and not others? Nobody knows for sure. There are a lot of possible reasons, but we don't know for sure which reason it is. Remember that even though God is in control, this world is full of sin so everyone has to die eventually. Why some people die young and some people die old, we don't know for sure. It could be because their death will help people (NOT to say that God would cause their death, He just might not stop it), because it is their time to be in Heaven, because God doesn't stop the sinful world from what it does sometimes......but again, that's all speculation. I'm not sure of the reason.

While it is the devil's fault, God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time. Why does God stop him sometimes and not others? Again, we don't know for sure. God has an exact plan for His children (Christians), and whatever needs to happen in order for that will to be fulfilled is going to be done.

God really IS beyond our understanding. I know people say that's a copout, but think about it......You yourself just said that if there is a God, He would have to be the most powerful one ever. If there is a God who is the most powerful one ever (which would mean we would all be below Him), wouldn't it make sense that we couldn't understand all of what He did?

Just because you don't know the answer to a question doesn't mean that there isn't one.

[TheNumber42]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

...or we could just play one of the classic Christian copouts. We could say 'free will', 'God doesn't intervene' (which invalidates all miracles in history and the idea of prayer) or, the one that really grates me, 'God is beyond our understanding'. None of these are even slightly valid arguments.

I'm an atheist, but I don't believe these are the only arguments. Honestly, I've never understood the whole idea behind this complaint against God. Good and evil are inextricably linked. One without the other is literally impossible because they are just names for opposite ends of the same spectrum. No matter how many times you cut the 'evil' half of the spectrum off, it won't get rid of evil. All that would do is water down the good things, there would still be evil. They rely on each other, they are defined by each other. If God wanted to have good in his world, evil was inevitable.

And perhaps you could argue that he could just make it less evil, but how would you know if he did? Maybe he already has and we just can't comprehend it because it doesn't exist. Maybe there's a whole other section of that spectrum God did chop off and things could be much worse.

In the end I don't believe it really matters because I don't think God does exist, just that I've never understood that particular argument.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by zapparappa

Why does God punish those that are not perfect when he made it possible for us to be unperfect in the first place? That said, sometimes I do respect God and in times of badness I do think of him...

He had to give us free will if he was going to make us in his image. However, he did not want us to disobey him.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Megan1

You can say that God doesn't always help people in need, but you can't say that He never does. There are sooooo many stories of God providing for people in need and providing miracles in situations like this. No it doesn't always happen, but there are many cases where it has. Why does He do it sometimes and not others? Nobody knows for sure. There are a lot of possible reasons, but we don't know for sure which reason it is. Remember that even though God is in control, this world is full of sin so everyone has to die eventually. Why some people die young and some people die old, we don't know for sure. It could be because their death will help people (NOT to say that God would cause their death, He just might not stop it), because it is their time to be in Heaven, because God doesn't stop the sinful world from what it does sometimes......but again, that's all speculation. I'm not sure of the reason.

I absolutely, passionately refute your point here. He has never done and it actually ruins your entire religion if you believe he does. The only times where he's ever 'provided' for someone, is ALWAYS in third world countries. There are no stories of God helping people in places in Africa, because there are no occasions where a person there has been helped by him. if they survive, it's because they managed to find the things they needed themselves.
But, let's say for the sake of argument, that occasionally God does intervene.


Free will no longer exists as the concept we recognise, because the moment he intervenes that free will is removed.
The only time God intervenes is stupid little things for priveleged white people, "I prayed to God that I'd do well in this test, and I did!!!!" - nothing important has ever been done. The Holocaust; 9/11 etc. are all events that God could have helped deal with or even stop with some intervention - but did he? No, of course not. It's small things he apparently helps with - be it saving one person (who's obviously more important) from a car crash or from a tumor or something - he never saves anyone important or stops any horrible events. He's sadistically selective with how and when he apparently intervenes, and I hate him, if he exists, for it.


I assert that you absolutely cannot believe in Total Free Will and also believe in Miracles and Divine Intervention. We either have total free will with no interference or we don't - one or the other. If God has at any point interfered or performed a miracle, Free Will no longer exists and that argument no longer works as an argument against evil. I'd be quite careful about what you choose.


It's not enough to just say "I don't know" - you should know what you're believing in. You're subscribing yourself to a religion, a way of life, a moral code and you don't even know anything about your God! Nobody knows enough about God to worship him, we only know what he isn't. I'd suggest that, if you ask yourself these very important questions, and consider the evidence and logical arguments, and you come up with "Who knows? I don't." then you should rethink why you're believing this.

Originally Posted by Megan1

While it is the devil's fault, God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time. Why does God stop him sometimes and not others? Again, we don't know for sure. God has an exact plan for His children (Christians), and whatever needs to happen in order for that will to be fulfilled is going to be done.

And then, in combination with my previous response, I think it's worth considering why God is so ruthless, merciless and cruel and if we really want to worship something like that.

Originally Posted by Megan1

God really IS beyond our understanding. I know people say that's a copout, but think about it......You yourself just said that if there is a God, He would have to be the most powerful one ever. If there is a God who is the most powerful one ever (which would mean we would all be below Him), wouldn't it make sense that we couldn't understand all of what He did?

Argument by Dismissal, and I'm not accepting it. I'd ask you to prove that God is beyond our understanding, but proving anything seems to be a bit of an issue for most Christians, so I'll just leave it at this: It is a cop-out. If I say I have a purple dragon next to me, and you say that he isn't as there's nothing there, and I respond "YOUR MIND CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT'S EXISTENCE" would you believe me? Of course not, it's a ridiculous statement to make - so why do you accept it here?

[LoneWolfintheWind]

Hahahahaha I wrote a forum on this, and you just basically summed it up in your sentence.
praise the dark lord for his truthful justice

[TheNumber42]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Argument by Dismissal, and I'm not accepting it. I'd ask you to prove that God is beyond our understanding, but proving anything seems to be a bit of an issue for most Christians, so I'll just leave it at this: It is a cop-out. If I say I have a purple dragon next to me, and you say that he isn't as there's nothing there, and I respond "YOUR MIND CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT'S EXISTENCE" would you believe me? Of course not, it's a ridiculous statement to make - so why do you accept it here?

Because God is testing us. Only the truly faithful will be saved from an eternity burning in HELL!

[kayla1234]

I don't buy this whole argument where people say that having faith will save you from hell because, like I said in my earlier post, some people have no opportunity in life to learn anything at all about Christianity...

Anyone disargreeing with this argument want to take a stab at explaining this to me or proving me wrong...? Here's my original argument:

Originally Posted by kayla1234

Do you mean to say that the only way to remove sin from ourselves and get into heaven is to believe in God? If we are all of God's children and God is all powerful then why are there countries in which children are born into the world with absolutely zero opportunity to learn that Christianity even exists. Regardless if they know, if they are strictly taught another religion from birth God gave them no real chance to relieve themselves of their sin...

[Of Mike and Men]

God didn't give a chance for humans to be perfect. The Bible teaches that God predestined people for salvation before the foundations of the world, which means God purposed the fall. And the answers as to why is found in Romans 9. It's ironic to me that people, namely Christians, insist that God gave us freewill, when the Bible does not teach this anywhere. God didn't give us freewill, and He did not give us a choice to be perfect. He purposed us to fall so that we can experience His grace, love, and mercy. Apart from hell and the fall, none of these would have any relevance, as perfect love must paradoxically consist of hate, or love does not exist.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Well, when the bible says "good", it seems to mean "containing no evil". That's what I was referring to. Yes there are nice people and there are kind people, you are right.....but even those people have some evil in them that they need to be saved from in order to get to Heaven....and they can't do that on their own; only Jesus can do it.

I'll agree with your definition of "good" for the time being. However, this begs the question what "bad" means. Does it mean "containing only evil" or "containing some evil"?

Originally Posted by Megan1

God is all-knowing. Even if He knew what they were going to choose, He still had to let them choose.....because if He didn't let us choose things, we couldn't choose to love Him. Yes Adam and Eve chose to go against Him, but after they made that mistake, they did eventually choose to turn to Him and love Him. I believe He knew that that would happen: that they would first turn away from Him, but eventually would turn back to Him. He knew that He had to wait for them to choose themselves in order for them to love Him because love is a choice.

From here and below you're just spitting out speculations. What makes you think god knew Adam and Eve would turn away but then return to him? If you say love is a choice, then this begs the question does free will exist? You already said god can easily control our choices so it seems as though free will does not exist. In a later post you said the following:

"God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time."

One can assume Satan has more power than humans do, so if god can control Satan at any moment, then sure it's not a problem to control humans. It seems as though you've provided an argument that free will does not exist, so how can people choose?

Originally Posted by Megan1

I'm not saying that God did make Himself ignorant; I'm just saying that He could if He chose to wait and see what happened. Not claiming that He did, but God is powerful enough that He could if He wanted to.

This is a different argument from before because above you proposed that god knew what would happen and waited for Adam and Eve to return to him. However, now you're saying god may have made himself unaware of what Adam and Eve would do. You're jumping back and forth between these arguments.

Originally Posted by Megan1

Love (according to the bible) isn't an emotion though. Love is a choice.

Can you provide a quote from the bible supporting that?

Originally Posted by Megan1

In the old testament, yes, that's how it was- you had to strictly follow the law and make sacrifices when you messed up. Otherwise, you would be punished for every time that you messed up. But now, you just have to accept Jesus' sacrifice that covers ALL of your sins, and turn to God rather than to your old sinful life (although you will still mess up sometimes, everybody does).

It sounds as though you're dismissing what the Old Testament says but as we both know, there are biblical quotes saying to follow the Old Testament and New Testament.

Originally Posted by Megan1

We were CREATED to love God and be loved by God. That's why we exist.

Do you have a biblical quote supporting this, particularly a quote where it says humans were created to be loved by god?

Originally Posted by Megan1

But He let us choose and we chose death. So what did God do? He sent His son to give us a second chance and bring our spirits back to life. God does not cause us to die, but He is the way out.

Again, the problem is god is all-knowing so he would already know what people would choose. If god created us and is the most powerful being, even stronger than Satan, surely he takes a part in ensuring we'll die.

Originally Posted by Megan1

Your gun analogy is flawed because God is not the one who kills us- satan is by tempting us to sin. God is just the only one who is able to save us, so if we don't take His help, there is no other way out.

God controls Satan though as you already said so you've negated this argument. You said:

"God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time"

In the gun analogy, god is not just reaching out to us, he also disarms the gun from Satan. However, for reasons unknown, god sometimes is too lazy to bother and may not disarm Satan.

Originally Posted by Megan1

We are not all God's children. God made all of us, but sin took us away from Him. Only those who have their sins taken away (which anyone can if they choose to) become His children.

If those who sin are not god's children, then whose children are they? In fact, Satan is one of god's children, a former angel to be specific. If we're Satan's children then that indirectly means we're god's children as well.

Originally Posted by Megan1

God really IS beyond our understanding. I know people say that's a copout, but think about it......You yourself just said that if there is a God, He would have to be the most powerful one ever. If there is a God who is the most powerful one ever (which would mean we would all be below Him), wouldn't it make sense that we couldn't understand all of what He did?

Being incredibly powerful doesn't equate with not being understood. Those are two separate ideas and you haven't given an argument for why you combine them together. For example, if you've seen movies similar to Bruce Almighty, Bruce an average guy gets the same amount of power as god. Does this mean he can no longer be understood?

Originally Posted by Megan1

Just because you don't know the answer to a question doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Cop-out.

[TheNumber42]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Just because you don't know the answer to a question doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Just because there's an answer doesn't mean it is the one you want it to be.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by cursive

God didn't give a chance for humans to be perfect. The Bible teaches that God predestined people for salvation before the foundations of the world, which means God purposed the fall. And the answers as to why is found in Romans 9. It's ironic to me that people, namely Christians, insist that God gave us freewill, when the Bible does not teach this anywhere. God didn't give us freewill, and He did not give us a choice to be perfect. He purposed us to fall so that we can experience His grace, love, and mercy. Apart from hell and the fall, none of these would have any relevance, as perfect love must paradoxically consist of hate, or love does not exist.

If we do not have free will what is the point in sharing Christ with others?

[MichWolverineFreak]

Because hes evil, he doesnt care who he punishes, because he feels love or friendship for absolutely no one, not even others like him.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by I love dogs

If we do not have free will what is the point in sharing Christ with others?

That's like asking, "Why eat?"

But to answer your question, God saves His elect through the hearing of the Gospel, whom He predestined through the hearing of His word to be saved.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But even if, let's assume the philosophy of the question. If we share the Gospel with others, it's only because He purposed us to do so. In your question, you're assuming we have the freewill to share the Gospel or not to, but we don't because whatever we do was predetermined by God. Again, Paul answers a question similar to yours in Romans 9. He says he wish he could even be cut off for the sake of his own people who God did not predestine, but he goes on to say that there is no injustice with God because of this because He didn't have to save anyone, and it further glorifies Christ by making known the riches of His grace to the objects of His mercy.

We share the Gospel because God has commanded it. It doesn't mean that we physically, or spiritually, save anyone. But that God had purposed us to share it because it is how He wroughts salvation in His chosen vessels. Yet even if you do not share the Gospel, God has purposed that, as well. Just like He purposed that evil men put to death His Son, Jesus Christ, yet they thought they were acting in accordance to their freewill, but the reality is they were acting in accordance to God's decree. I.E. Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" and again, Acts 4:28: "But everything they did was determined beforehand according to Your will."

Freewill is found no where in the Bible. Neither by verse, apart from Sirach -- which is debatable, nor philosophically.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by cursive

That's like asking, "Why eat?"

But to answer your question, God saves His elect through the hearing of the Gospel, whom He predestined through the hearing of His word to be saved.

Eph. 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But even if, let's assume the philosophy of the question. If we share the Gospel with others, it's only because He purposed us to do so. Again, Paul answers a question similar to yours in Romans 9. He says he wish he could even be cut off for the sake of his own people who God did not predestine, but he goes on to say that there is no injustice with God because of this because He didn't have to save anyone, and it further glorifies Christ by making known the riches of His grace to the objects of His mercy.

We share the Gospel because God has commanded it. It doesn't mean that we physically, or spiritually, save anyone. But that God had purposed us to share it because it is how we wroughts salvation in His chosen vessels.

But if you either accept or not and you have NO say in it what is the point? If he "elected" them then that means that they will be saved no matter what.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'll agree with your definition of "good" for the time being. However, this begs the question what "bad" means. Does it mean "containing only evil" or "containing some evil"?



From here and below you're just spitting out speculations. What makes you think god knew Adam and Eve would turn away but then return to him? If you say love is a choice, then this begs the question does free will exist? You already said god can easily control our choices so it seems as though free will does not exist. In a later post you said the following:

"God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time."

One can assume Satan has more power than humans do, so if god can control Satan at any moment, then sure it's not a problem to control humans. It seems as though you've provided an argument that free will does not exist, so how can people choose?



This is a different argument from before because above you proposed that god knew what would happen and waited for Adam and Eve to return to him. However, now you're saying god may have made himself unaware of what Adam and Eve would do. You're jumping back and forth between these arguments.



Can you provide a quote from the bible supporting that?



It sounds as though you're dismissing what the Old Testament says but as we both know, there are biblical quotes saying to follow the Old Testament and New Testament.



Do you have a biblical quote supporting this, particularly a quote where it says humans were created to be loved by god?



Again, the problem is god is all-knowing so he would already know what people would choose. If god created us and is the most powerful being, even stronger than Satan, surely he takes a part in ensuring we'll die.



God controls Satan though as you already said so you've negated this argument. You said:

"God has control of the devil and can stop him from doing anything at any time"

In the gun analogy, god is not just reaching out to us, he also disarms the gun from Satan. However, for reasons unknown, god sometimes is too lazy to bother and may not disarm Satan.



If those who sin are not god's children, then whose children are they? In fact, Satan is one of god's children, a former angel to be specific. If we're Satan's children then that indirectly means we're god's children as well.



Being incredibly powerful doesn't equate with not being understood. Those are two separate ideas and you haven't given an argument for why you combine them together. For example, if you've seen movies similar to Bruce Almighty, Bruce an average guy gets the same amount of power as god. Does this mean he can no longer be understood?



Cop-out.

I'd say that going by the bible, "bad" seems to mean "containing evil" of any amount. That's why the old testament (before anyone's sins were taken away) says "there is not one good person".

God could control our choices, but that doesn't mean He does. God doesn't do everything that He can do. God can choose to control us, or He can choose to let us freely make our own choices. GOD CAN DO ANYTHING! As far as which one He chooses to do, that is debatable.

As far as a bible verse about love, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 talks about what love is (patient, kind, etc).....that's way more than a feeling, it's a list of actions. Also, the bible says that to love God is to follow His ways. If love were an emotion, that verse would be a lie because it would mean that you could love God just by feeling it.

The bible does say not to disreguard the law of Moses (which was written in the old testament), that is true. But that doesn't mean that things are the same now as they were then.

Verses saying that we were made to love God......Colossians 1:16 says that we were made "for God". In Ephesians (can't find the exact verse, I will keep looking), it says that we are for His pleasure and that we should love Him....though it doesn't say directly that we are made to love Him; it is more implied. I'm trying to find more verses.

As far as the gun analogy.....no analogy is perfect because it is just symbolic and there is a way around all of them on both sides. In this case though, yes God does have control of the devil, but He refuses to make that choice for us. God will allow any of us to be saved from death, but we have to choose to get away from death; God isn't going to be controling and force us to. If we'd rather choose death, as much as it breaks His heart, He is going to let us do that. Like I said before, He will never force us to love Him. If someone would rather face death than love God for some reason, He is going to let them do that.

Satan is not God's child. Where in the bible is that? The bible says that those who are saved will be children of God and those who aren't are children of darkness (but anyone can be a child of God if they choose to).

Humans can only use a small part of our brains and are literally not able to know everything. Whether you are Christian, athiest, or anything else, you almost have to agree with that much. So if God is all-powerful and has knowledge of EVERYTHING in Him, it is literally impossible to understand everything about Him. The bible tells us a lot, and through the Holy Spirit we recieve understanding- but while we are on this Earth, we can never know everything....about God or about anything else.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

I absolutely, passionately refute your point here. He has never done and it actually ruins your entire religion if you believe he does. The only times where he's ever 'provided' for someone, is ALWAYS in third world countries. There are no stories of God helping people in places in Africa, because there are no occasions where a person there has been helped by him. if they survive, it's because they managed to find the things they needed themselves.
But, let's say for the sake of argument, that occasionally God does intervene.


Free will no longer exists as the concept we recognise, because the moment he intervenes that free will is removed.
The only time God intervenes is stupid little things for priveleged white people, "I prayed to God that I'd do well in this test, and I did!!!!" - nothing important has ever been done. The Holocaust; 9/11 etc. are all events that God could have helped deal with or even stop with some intervention - but did he? No, of course not. It's small things he apparently helps with - be it saving one person (who's obviously more important) from a car crash or from a tumor or something - he never saves anyone important or stops any horrible events. He's sadistically selective with how and when he apparently intervenes, and I hate him, if he exists, for it.


I assert that you absolutely cannot believe in Total Free Will and also believe in Miracles and Divine Intervention. We either have total free will with no interference or we don't - one or the other. If God has at any point interfered or performed a miracle, Free Will no longer exists and that argument no longer works as an argument against evil. I'd be quite careful about what you choose.


It's not enough to just say "I don't know" - you should know what you're believing in. You're subscribing yourself to a religion, a way of life, a moral code and you don't even know anything about your God! Nobody knows enough about God to worship him, we only know what he isn't. I'd suggest that, if you ask yourself these very important questions, and consider the evidence and logical arguments, and you come up with "Who knows? I don't." then you should rethink why you're believing this.





And then, in combination with my previous response, I think it's worth considering why God is so ruthless, merciless and cruel and if we really want to worship something like that.





Argument by Dismissal, and I'm not accepting it. I'd ask you to prove that God is beyond our understanding, but proving anything seems to be a bit of an issue for most Christians, so I'll just leave it at this: It is a cop-out. If I say I have a purple dragon next to me, and you say that he isn't as there's nothing there, and I respond "YOUR MIND CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT'S EXISTENCE" would you believe me? Of course not, it's a ridiculous statement to make - so why do you accept it here?

If you dont' believe that God has ever helped people in those countries, you really need to look up things like Global Expeditions and hear stories about things that God has done in places like Africa. God sometimes does do things Himself, but we also have to remember that He sometimes uses other people to do it. There are stories of both.

All things are important to God- big and small. He cares about the dying child in Africa and the teenager in America who is taking a big test. Yes some things are more important than others, but He does care about both. And saying that God doesn't stop things like 9/11 .....you really can't say that. Yes 9/11 happened, but do you know how many times that terrorist attempts WERE stopped before anyone was killed? A lot. Just because that one wasn't stopped doesn't mean that they never are.

About "total free will", I'm not sure. I know that there is free will to some extent, but God also controls some things.....it's kind of a hard thing to draw a line and say "there is free will here" and "there isn't free will here". I'm not going to try to draw that line because I'd probably explain it wrong.

It's not reasonable to say that just because I say "I don't know" about something, it means that I don't understand my religion. Aside from God, nobody knows everything. No matter how much I do know, there will always be some things that I don't have answers to.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Just because there's an answer doesn't mean it is the one you want it to be.

Very true. I wasn't trying to prove God through that statement....I was just saying that just because our minds can't understand something doesn't mean that there isn't an answer to it.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Megan1

If you dont' believe that God has ever helped people in those countries, you really need to look up things like Global Expeditions and hear stories about things that God has done in places like Africa. God sometimes does do things Himself, but we also have to remember that He sometimes uses other people to do it. There are stories of both.

As I said, that's not God helping them, that's people helping them. Two very different things.

Originally Posted by Megan1

All things are important to God- big and small. He cares about the dying child in Africa and the teenager in America who is taking a big test. Yes some things are more important than others, but He does care about both. And saying that God doesn't stop things like 9/11 .....you really can't say that. Yes 9/11 happened, but do you know how many times that terrorist attempts WERE stopped before anyone was killed? A lot. Just because that one wasn't stopped doesn't mean that they never are.

Yes, other terrorist attacks were stopped.
Who by?
People. Not God. We took command of our destinies and our wellbeing and realised that if the terrorists decided to attack us, God wasn't going to stop them.
God does not help us. He does not intervene. He does not help "through people" - that's an argument from ignorance as there's no way to prove otherwise than that they're doing it because they want to.

Originally Posted by Megan1

About "total free will", I'm not sure. I know that there is free will to some extent, but God also controls some things.....it's kind of a hard thing to draw a line and say "there is free will here" and "there isn't free will here". I'm not going to try to draw that line because I'd probably explain it wrong.

Good answer. I think you're right actually. God doesn't give us totally free will, and where he draws the line definitely isn't up to us. It's also one of the reasons why I hate him.

Originally Posted by Megan1

It's not reasonable to say that just because I say "I don't know" about something, it means that I don't understand my religion. Aside from God, nobody knows everything. No matter how much I do know, there will always be some things that I don't have answers to.

I'm not saying that you don't understand your religion, I'm just saying that if possibly the most important questions in life aren't answered by your religion, and you just come up with "Who knows? Let's just leave God to decide it." then you need to reconsider why you believe it and what the point is.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by I love dogs

But if you either accept or not and you have NO say in it what is the point? If he "elected" them then that means that they will be saved no matter what.

Again, you can think about this in an analogy. If you either eat or don't, and you have no say in whether you eat or don't, what's the point? If he elected some to eat, and others to starve, those who will eat, will eat no matter what.

I'm not arguing your point, but the point is to be obedient to the calls of God. We find people again and again i.e. Jonah, Saul, etc. all who were chosen by God for specific purposes, and they didn't have the option to say no. Jonah even tried to, but God wouldn't let him. We don't have a choice, just the appearance of the choice, and those who chose yes, chose because God caused them to choose yes. That is, they were already born again with the Spirit to believe, all who believe were caused, purposed, destined, ordained, etc. by God to believe. There was no choice.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (KJV)

Those who are ordained to eternal life, believe. Why? Because God made us alive with Christ. Not because we chose Him, but because He destined a select few to be united with Christ, and purposefully, it is those who believe that were already quickened by grace. We are given examples of this over and over in old and new testaments. God chooses man, we don't chose God, nor do we choose His salvation. For how could we?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)

If the natural, fleshly man, receives not the things of God, how is it a fleshly man has a choice? They don't. True, God says, "All who are thirsty," but only His elect will thirst. In fact NIV reads this way:

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thus it must be and only be that we are saved because "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us [the elect], Even when we [the elect] were dead in sins, hath quickened us [the elect] together with Christ." For it is by grace that I am saved, not by choice, lest any man should boast. And better yet, how could I ever choose yes, without the Spirit of God? I am saved because God chose me, purposed me, destined me, etc. to eternal life. Not because I made some petty choice, and if I made a choice, and believe it is my choice that saved me, I am not saved because salvation is not because of me, it is because of God's salvation that encompasses election in Jesus Christ, wrought out by the Holy Spirit, purchased for His people in Christ.

I do not mean to smother you with verses, but they are just to show it is what the Bible teaches, not me.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

It is because of HIM [GOD] that I am in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is my wisdom, my righteousness, my holiness, and my redemption. It is not my choice that is my redemption. But because of God who placed me in Christ Jesus as He died for His people on the tree. The people whom He came to save from their sins (see Matt. 1:21). It is a misconception that Christ died for the whole world collectively, as when the Bible references the world i.e. John 3:16, it is only referencing the world of His elect people, that is, a large amount of people over a period of time. Not the literal world. World essentially means that it included gentiles, Jews, tax collectors, etc. that ALL TYPES of people would be included. In John 3:16 the world most definitely is in reference to the gentiles being included in the salvation, and not just the Jews. And if you read the exact language in Greek, it is simply saying that those who believe already possess eternal life. It does not mean that you believe and so you have eternal life. It is that they have eternal life, thus they believe. I can give examples of this if you wish, to prove my point, where world most definitely does not mean world, but it is used regardless. It simply means a large amount of people. Again, if you want me to show you, I will.

It is similar to the Old Testament. A child in the Old Testament born into Israel would have been one of God's children. But that child, as an infant, had no knowledge of this. It was when he became grown up and at the right time, that he would realize he was a child of God. So it is with the Christian. A Christian will be worldly, and continually so, until God makes know to the Christian that He has saved Him before He even placed His faith in Him, but upon placing faith in God, He makes His salvation known to Him, and is then saved. The language on that last sentence may seem contradictory, but it is a similar language that Paul uses in Romans. We were saved in the past [before the foundations of the world], but we are also saved now [the moment of faith], we are also being saved [presently], and we will also be saved [judgment].

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by cursive

Again, you can think about this in an analogy. If you either eat or don't, and you have no say in whether you eat or don't, what's the point? If he elected some to eat, and others to starve, those who will eat, will eat no matter what.

I'm not arguing your point, but the point is to be obedient to the calls of God. We find people again and again i.e. Jonah, Saul, etc. all who were chosen by God for specific purposes, and they didn't have the option to say no. Jonah even tried to, but God wouldn't let him. We don't have a choice, just the appearance of the choice, and those who chose yes, chose because God caused them to choose yes. That is, they were already born again with the Spirit to believe, all who believe were caused, purposed, destined, ordained, etc. by God to believe. There was no choice.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (KJV)

Those who are ordained to eternal life, believe. Why? Because God made us alive with Christ. Not because we chose Him, but because He destined a select few to be united with Christ, and purposefully, it is those who believe that were already quickened by grace. We are given examples of this over and over in old and new testaments. God chooses man, we don't chose God, nor do we choose His salvation. For how could we?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)

If the natural, fleshly man, receives not the things of God, how is it a fleshly man has a choice? They don't. True, God says, "All who are thirsty," but only His elect will thirst. In fact NIV reads this way:

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thus it must be and only be that we are saved because "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us [the elect], Even when we [the elect] were dead in sins, hath quickened us [the elect] together with Christ." For it is by grace that I am saved, not by choice, lest any man should boast. And better yet, how could I ever choose yes, without the Spirit of God? I am saved because God chose me, purposed me, destined me, etc. to eternal life. Not because I made some petty choice, and if I made a choice, and believe it is my choice that saved me, I am not saved because salvation is not because of me, it is because of God's salvation that encompasses election in Jesus Christ, wrought out by the Holy Spirit, purchased for His people in Christ.

I do not mean to smother you with verses, but they are just to show it is what the Bible teaches, not me.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

It is because of HIM [GOD] that I am in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is my wisdom, my righteousness, my holiness, and my redemption. It is not my choice that is my redemption. But because of God who placed me in Christ Jesus as He died for His people on the tree. The people whom He came to save from their sins (see Matt. 1:21). It is a misconception that Christ died for the whole world collectively, as when the Bible references the world i.e. John 3:16, it is only referencing the world of His elect people, that is, a large amount of people over a period of time. Not the literal world. World essentially means that it included gentiles, Jews, tax collectors, etc. that ALL TYPES of people would be included. In John 3:16 the world most definitely is in reference to the gentiles being included in the salvation, and not just the Jews. And if you read the exact language in Greek, it is simply saying that those who believe already possess eternal life. It does not mean that you believe and so you have eternal life. It is that they have eternal life, thus they believe. I can give examples of this if you wish, to prove my point, where world most definitely does not mean world, but it is used regardless. It simply means a large amount of people. Again, if you want me to show you, I will.

It is similar to the Old Testament. A child in the Old Testament born into Israel would have been one of God's children. But that child, as an infant, had no knowledge of this. It was when he became grown up and at the right time, that he would realize he was a child of God. So it is with the Christian. A Christian will be worldly, and continually so, until God makes know to the Christian that He has saved Him before He even placed His faith in Him, but upon placing faith in God, He makes His salvation known to Him, and is then saved. The language on that last sentence may seem contradictory, but it is a similar language that Paul uses in Romans. We were saved in the past [before the foundations of the world], but we are also saved now [the moment of faith], we are also being saved [presently], and we will also be saved [judgment].

You still have free will to eat. If you put liver in front of me I will NOT eat it unless you tube feed me. Which unless there is a reason they will not do. As for Jonah he could have kept saying no he just may have stayed in the fish's belly for longer.