My story.

[bailatyvm]

Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs. I get that. But I'm just going to share my story just because I feel like people don't get enough perspectives. No, I'm not trying to shove this down your throat...I just want you to see my life.

First of all, until I got to eighth grade I'd never actually consistently gone to a church before, and all of the 'super-christian' people really freaked me out..I was just like, oh, okay, you're going to judge me? coool. But somehow right before eighth grade I ended up on a mission trip and they were like, God loves you and wants to be there for you. And..needless to say, I was intrigued. My sixth grade year I'd had problems with an eating disorder and my seventh grade year I had problems with depression. So I was like, that's cool, and I started going to this church on Sundays.

You think this is the part where I say OHMYGOSH MY LIFE CHANGED.
No, not really. I mean, I understood a little bit more, but I'm horrible with focusing and the church thing was just something I did..

So the next summer I went on another mission trip...the year before had been alright. But I had no relationship with my parents at all and I was just sad and empty and..horrible. But during that mission trip I learned that it was okay, despite all of my pain I was going to go somewhere and I had a purpose.

Now's my amazing change?!! No. My story's not exactly the one they like to tell people.
The next year went by, and I got into SH. The depression got really bad, and I was like, how do I even know there's a God out there?? So I decided there wasn't...and I stayed that way for about a month before I felt so empty that I just couldn't take it. I KNEW there was a God. Because there was a void in my life otherwise....
well, I went on another mission trip that year.
and I was amazed. Because despite the fact that I was a scarred, hateful, broken person, Jesus died for ME. And he wants a relationship with ME. And He's there to hold me, and fill that void. He's there to be the father that I don't really have, and he's let me deal with depression because he knew I could handle it..and truth be told, I AM strong. I didn't know how strong I was, but I am. And he knew that, while I didn't. So I turned back to God, and slowly things began to heal again..

until school started back up. wham. school was absolute chaos. My depression hit an all time low, the SH started back up, and I knew I couldn't go back to God. Sure, I knew he loved me. But I also knew that I'd screwed up. So I just went through the motions.

Until the void became unbearable..and I read this book. And I realized that just because I was Christian didn't mean that I had to be perfect. And that he would take me back, and he would work with me, because he loved me.

And I know, it's a crazy thought, some amazingly powerful God loving you?
But it's why I'm alive. That love has kept me going, and I can't let go of him. He loves me. He loves you.

I know you might not believe the same thing, but it's what I believe and I'm going to stay this way. Sure, I might screw up sometimes, but I'm going to make it, in the end.

and..that's my story. well, most of it, anyhow. there's a lot more, but that's an overview.

but, yeah, miracles really do happen, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel. as my history teacher always said, the world wouldn't work out unless there was more good than bad in the world. and..now I can see that. Depression tainted my view of everything, but...I survived, with a little help<3

[AngelWithASecret]

Thankyou <3

You've just helped me to re-realise that fact so thankyou <3

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

But I'm just going to share my story just because I feel like people don't get enough perspectives.

Really? If you talk to any person of any religion or lack thereof, they'll give you a perspective every single time.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

I ended up on a mission trip and they were like, God loves you and wants to be there for you.

Take a look at this quote:

"And GOD saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repeneth me that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Obviously god didn't wipe out man, however, it does raise the question, if god wanted to kill all of humanity, including you, did he really want to be there for you? The quote says otherwise but the only reason god didn't was because of Noah.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

The next year went by, and I got into SH. The depression got really bad, and I was like, how do I even know there's a God out there?? So I decided there wasn't...and I stayed that way for about a month before I felt so empty that I just couldn't take it. I KNEW there was a God. Because there was a void in my life otherwise....

What happened in that month that made you believe there was any supernatural deity, Christian or not? Furthermore, what made you believe specifically in the Christian god and not another religion?

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

well, I went on another mission trip that year.
and I was amazed. Because despite the fact that I was a scarred, hateful, broken person, Jesus died for ME. And he wants a relationship with ME. And He's there to hold me, and fill that void. He's there to be the father that I don't really have, and he's let me deal with depression because he knew I could handle it..and truth be told, I AM strong. I didn't know how strong I was, but I am. And he knew that, while I didn't. So I turned back to God, and slowly things began to heal again..

This is something I always find amusing from Christians. They claim god or jesus knew of something of their life and refer to the bible yet nowhere in the bible is any of that mentioned. For example, you said jesus knew how strong you were to overcome depression but that's simply you talking, you were the one who overcame depression.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

Until the void became unbearable..and I read this book. And I realized that just because I was Christian didn't mean that I had to be perfect. And that he would take me back, and he would work with me, because he loved me.

By book I assume you mean the bible. If so, did you ever look into the Old Testament? This following quote is from the New Testament:

"For if we sin willfully after that which we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful look of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses" (Hebrews 10:26-28)

Basically it means if you accept Christianity and sin, then tough shit, you're not going to be forgiven in any way. It's a one-time deal. By Moses' law, it's referring to the Old Testament in saying if you don't accept it, you're dead, no chance to be forgiven, no second chance, it's all gone. Christianity views people as sinning quite often because you cant follow the entire bible metaphorically or literally, you'll run into contradictions and have to pick and choose. So since you have already sinned, would god love you if he wouldn't give you a second chance or accept any repenting?

I don't quite care if you continue to believe Christianity or not but I'm mentioning these passages because churches don't go over them. These passages may scare Christians and churches don't usually want that.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

He loves me. He loves you.

This is where you'll run into further problems because you've just told me that a god I reject and have no interest in, has some love, caring and all that good stuff. You're not pushing your religion onto people but that statement brings it awfully close.

[bailatyvm]

I have the perspective of the new testament, not the old. and as a matter of fact I have read a LOT of both. And it makes sense to me.

What happened in that month that made you believe there was any supernatural deity, Christian or not? Furthermore, what made you believe specifically in the Christian god and not another religion?

[COLOR="rgb(153, 50, 204)"]and because I looked into them and they just weren't for me. is that a problem?[/color]


By book I assume you mean the bible. If so, did you ever look into the Old Testament? This following quote is from the New Testament:

"For if we sin willfully after that which we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful look of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses" (Hebrews 10:26-28)

Basically it means if you accept Christianity and sin, then tough shit, you're not going to be forgiven in any way. It's a one-time deal. By Moses' law, it's referring to the Old Testament in saying if you don't accept it, you're dead, no chance to be forgiven, no second chance, it's all gone. Christianity views people as sinning quite often because you cant follow the entire bible metaphorically or literally, you'll run into contradictions and have to pick and choose. So since you have already sinned, would god love you if he wouldn't give you a second chance or accept any repenting?

I don't quite care if you continue to believe Christianity or not but I'm mentioning these passages because churches don't go over them. These passages may scare Christians and churches don't usually want that.



[COLOR="rgb(153, 50, 204)"]No, those passages are mentioned in my church. And if it were still old testament times right now, then, yeah, that would suck. But the whole 'Jesus wiping the slate clean' is why that won't bother me. Because god didn't WANT to have to punish us. just like parents generally don't like punishing their kids, but it's necessary for us to learn...and that wasn't the book, actually. it was the book heaven is for real.
[/color]

This is where you'll run into further problems because you've just told me that a god I reject and have no interest in, has some love, caring and all that good stuff. You're not pushing your religion onto people but that statement brings it awfully close.
[/quote]
[COLOR="rgb(153, 50, 204)"]
Hm, let's say I have this super nice friend named Tina, and she's one of those sweet people that just loves everyone right when she meets them and never judges or anything. So, she'd love you too. Why is that a big problem? you can continue on with your life not caring a bit about that.[/color]

and I really hate how defensive I sound right now, but what you're doing is what a lot of churches do too. just picking quotes..but you have to look at what comes after. I won't pretend to be an expert but I know some passages that answer your questions..and I would answer them but I'm not at my house right now and I don't really have access to them. But my beliefs are my beliefs, and since I'm not picking yours to pieces, why should you do that with mine?

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

...and I really hate how defensive I sound right now, but what you're doing is what a lot of churches do too. just picking quotes..

If you're going to pick quotes, from the Bible, that suit your own beliefs, then we're equally entitled to pick quotes from the same book and ask you questions about them. It really weakens your position when you use a book as a source of validity and then disregard the points that don't suit the view you want us to have.

Also, you're the one putting your beliefs up here to be viewed and commented on. Feel free to critique our beliefs all you like, but, after all, this is a thread built around yours. You shouldn't be surprised or irritated when you get feedback that may put your beliefs in bind. (Honestly, if your beliefs can't withstand criticism, then why should you cling to them so firmly?)

[Of Mike and Men]

I don't think this thread was for debating, Nick. However, I want to point out something. The sin discussed in Hebrews, in context, is the sin of apostasy. We have examples of many people in the Bible who have willfully sinned, continually so, i.e. Solomon, and even Apostles like Peter, who denied Christ 3 times. Yet, both of them forgiven. Note also, in Hebrews, it is also believed that Hebrews 10 maybe a reference to professing Christians, but not true Christians. People who hear the truth, but don't accept it. In 1 Corinthians, it tells us that there are many who are Christians that would be considered murderers, adulterers, etc. but in Christ we have been washed and cleansed by the grace of God, and forgiven. Romans 7 is the Apostle Paul, and he says outright that he struggles obeying God. In Luke, Christ was walking on water and said to his feared disciples, "Why do you have no faith?" Yet they were saved. Christianity is a performance based religion, but not on the Christians performance, on Christ's performance. We obey because we love Him because He loved us. Not to earn or maintain or save our forgiveness. As we are told in Holy Scripture, nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[bailatyvm]

yeah, it really wasn't for debating. it was just a story. you read it, you move on with your everyday life. it's just another perspective amongst many perspectives.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

I have the perspective of the new testament, not the old. and as a matter of fact I have read a LOT of both. And it makes sense to me.

If you have the perspective of the New Testament, then what makes sense of the Old Testament?

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

and because I looked into them and they just weren't for me. is that a problem?

Nope.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

No, those passages are mentioned in my church. And if it were still old testament times right now, then, yeah, that would suck. But the whole 'Jesus wiping the slate clean' is why that won't bother me. Because god didn't WANT to have to punish us. just like parents generally don't like punishing their kids, but it's necessary for us to learn...and that wasn't the book, actually. it was the book heaven is for real.

While I agree it would suck, you have to remember, the 10 Commandments were from the Old Testament. If you only accept the New Testament then you reject the 10 Commandments, Genesis, etc... .

So you were convinced of Christianity because of some book that wasn't the bible?

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

Hm, let's say I have this super nice friend named Tina, and she's one of those sweet people that just loves everyone right when she meets them and never judges or anything. So, she'd love you too. Why is that a big problem? you can continue on with your life not caring a bit about that.

Your analogy doesn't fit because god does judge everyone. Furthermore, Christianity has a set of ideologies that may be pushed, whereas Tina loving people isn't the same sort of ideology.

Originally Posted by bailatyvm

and I really hate how defensive I sound right now, but what you're doing is what a lot of churches do too. just picking quotes..but you have to look at what comes after. I won't pretend to be an expert but I know some passages that answer your questions..and I would answer them but I'm not at my house right now and I don't really have access to them. But my beliefs are my beliefs, and since I'm not picking yours to pieces, why should you do that with mine?

Yes I did pick quotes and I do know what comes after and before the quotes. However, since you have read the bible, you pick quotes that suit your belief so I can do the very same. I'm not picking yours to pieces, I'm posing questions about some elements of your beliefs, although one could turn this into a mindless semantics game. Questioning will strengthen your belief because it forces you to think and give answers. It also can show you where you're uncertain about certain things. You're more than welcome to pick at my beliefs, I'll state them right here: I'm an atheist, anti-theist and theological non-cognitivist.

Originally Posted by cursive

I don't think this thread was for debating, Nick.

Oh but you have to admit it can be fun, I mean, look at all the debates we've had.

Originally Posted by cursive

However, I want to point out something. The sin discussed in Hebrews, in context, is the sin of apostasy. We have examples of many people in the Bible who have willfully sinned, continually so, i.e. Solomon, and even Apostles like Peter, who denied Christ 3 times. Yet, both of them forgiven. Note also, in Hebrews, it is also believed that Hebrews 10 maybe a reference to professing Christians, but not true Christians.

I always have a problem with the term, "true Christians" because what does that really mean? Looking at the various denominations and interpretations of the bible, it's clear there is no universally agreeing denomination, so each group would call others, "not true Christians".

I'm curious though, if they were forgiven for their continual sins, does that not go against the Hebrews 10 quote?

Originally Posted by cursive

In 1 Corinthians, it tells us that there are many who are Christians that would be considered murderers, adulterers, etc. but in Christ we have been washed and cleansed by the grace of God, and forgiven.

As above, if 1 Corinthians says they were forgiven, does that not go against the Hebrews 10 quote?

Originally Posted by cursive

Christianity is a performance based religion, but not on the Christians performance, on Christ's performance.

I agree it's a performance-based religion and I agree there is emphasis on Christ's performance. However, there is also immense emphasis on the the performance of individual Christians as seen by the numerous laws and commands. For example, the 10 Commandments is set out for Christians to follow. I'm curious how you reason that Christianity is exclusively based on Christ's performance.

[Marguerite]

OP, I think you're coming off as a bit preachy. I hate it when Christians say "God loves you regardless!" because it's totally dismissive of other beliefs (or non-beliefs). Basically saying "Okay, you can be ignorant about Gods existence but he loves you anyway".

But I do wonder XX and Quantum what your goal is here debating her. Maybe she'll say "Oh you're right, the thing that made me turn my life around is complete rubbish. Guess I'll go kill myself now." Or how about "You know what, I have been ignoring those parts of the bible. I guess I hate humanity and want everyone to die".

I mean, if her beliefs aren't hurting anyone and they've helped her out, who really gives?

Never understood why people have a problem with people 'picking and choosing' from the bible. If you're going to make me choose between a raging bigot who agrees with everyone the bible says and a happy go lucky one who just likes the 'nice' bits, well, I'm always going to go with the latter.

*sigh*

Now I'm the preachy one.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Oh but you have to admit it can be fun, I mean, look at all the debates we've had.

I did lol at this though.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

But I do wonder XX and Quantum what your goal is here debating her. Maybe she'll say "Oh you're right, the thing that made me turn my life around is complete rubbish. Guess I'll go kill myself now." Or how about "You know what, I have been ignoring those parts of the bible. I guess I hate humanity and want everyone to die".

I mean, if her beliefs aren't hurting anyone and they've helped her out, who really gives?

I already stated my purpose: the questioning requires her to think, thus strengthening her beliefs or creates areas where she has to apply biblical knowledge. However, I also told her if she feels she is being picked on, then I'm fine if she picks at my beliefs, I laid them out for her.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Never understood why people have a problem with people 'picking and choosing' from the bible. If you're going to make me choose between a raging bigot who agrees with everyone the bible says and a happy go lucky one who just likes the 'nice' bits, well, I'm always going to go with the latter.

Main reason for me is when one does the picking and choosing, typically they claim to have read the entire bible yet when questioned about other areas, they're at a loss. Furthermore, bible believers typically view the bible's contents as true, which means the parts saying not to pick and choose are also true. Lastly, many who pick and choose don't have great arguments (or sometimes don't have any arguments) for why they reject certain parts, thus, they act purely on emotion while claiming the entire bible is true, even the parts they don't believe. Overall, it quickly leads to them saying the bible is true, it should be believed yet the person only believes in certain parts, a direct contradiction. Some of the parts they disbelieve they may also not truly understand their meaning.

[Soliloquy]

Thanks for sharing this with us. I'm not a Christian, but I'm so glad that you've found something that has helped you to grow.

As previously stated, this thread isn't really for debating, guys. She just wants to share her story with people. Like Marguerite said, I don't quite see what you're trying to accomplish by picking at it.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Eblouie

As previously stated, this thread isn't really for debating, guys. She just wants to share her story with people. Like Marguerite said, I don't quite see what you're trying to accomplish by picking at it.

Speaking for myself, I've stated my reasons more than once already. I'll state it again though: my reason is that challenging her belief allows her to possible strengthen her belief by answering the questioned issues. Another reason is one that Marguerite said, the OP came off as preachy and dismissed other beliefs.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Oh but you have to admit it can be fun, I mean, look at all the debates we've had.

It is indeed fun, at times. However, as a wise man once said, "There is a time for everything." Although it may be a good time to debate, unfortunately, this thread wasn't purposed for that. At least to my knowledge.

[quote=The Man And XX Master;687431
I always have a problem with the term, "true Christians" because what does that really mean? Looking at the various denominations and interpretations of the bible, it's clear there is no universally agreeing denomination, so each group would call others, "not true Christians".
[/quote]

I agree with you, that is, having a problem with the term, "true Christians." In fact, I've recently written a paper on this subject. However, the term comes from Christ, not from His mouth directly, but indirectly. Christ said that there will be many to say to Him on judgment day, "But Lord, did we not cast on demons in your name, and perform many miracles, etc. etc. in your name?" And He will respond to them plainly, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." Thus, there are many professing Christians, but that does not mean all are Christians. So, the term "true Christian" means someone who has been born again. Not someone who merely professes to be what they are not. That is, I can act like a monkey, and claim to be a monkey, I can exhibit behaviors of a monkey, but this does not make me a monkey.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'm curious though, if they were forgiven for their continual sins, does that not go against the Hebrews 10 quote?

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows.

-John Gill

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I agree it's a performance-based religion and I agree there is emphasis on Christ's performance. However, there is also immense emphasis on the the performance of individual Christians as seen by the numerous laws and commands. For example, the 10 Commandments is set out for Christians to follow. I'm curious how you reason that Christianity is exclusively based on Christ's performance.

Not really. In fact, in Romans 7 Paul says that if we want to live by the ten commandments, we are adulterers to Christ. The 10 commandments isn't set for us to follow. The 10 commandments were to present our need for Christ (Galatians 3:24), that is, it leaves us condemned (2 Corinthians 3:9; Romans 3:20). Christ is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption (1 Corinthians 1:30), not our performance.

[Soliloquy]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Speaking for myself, I've stated my reasons more than once already. I'll state it again though: my reason is that challenging her belief allows her to possible strengthen her belief by answering the questioned issues. Another reason is one that Marguerite said, the OP came off as preachy and dismissed other beliefs.

I definitely understand your love of debates. They can be quite fun at times. However, I must agree with Michael:

Originally Posted by cursive

...as a wise man once said, "There is a time for everything."

I know I have run into this problem with people in the past. They say something, I think it's a good time for a debate, and they become offended. It was only recently that I was able to see it from their perspective. Maybe you don't realize (I know I didn't) how debating can come off to others. While you may see it as a positive thing, making people question and strengthen their beliefs (which I definitely agree that it can), another who is not looking to be challenged may see it as an attack, especially when they only wanted to share their personal experience.

I've re-read the original post, and personally, I don't feel that the OP was being preachy or disregarding the beliefs of others. (Just to clarify, I lean more towards 'atheist' than I do 'theist,' so it's not as though I'm attempting to defend my own view.) She did write "God loves you" toward the end, but I see that as being a general statement of her beliefs. She was not targeting anyone in particular. It was made to contribute to the story, not to convert us.

Sometimes, debating can even come off as being 'preachy.' So in essence you are doing the very thing you warn others against. I had to learn this the hard way. If a Christian is preachy by proclaiming her beliefs to the world, then I am equally so as an atheist if I do the same thing.

Like I said, I mean no offense. I just don't think everyone understands how debates can come off to others. They're great fun! But there's a time and place for them, and not everyone is looking for one.