Irrational Thinking...

[Cosmo]

I'd like to raise a point that's been bothering me for a long, long while.

Why is it that:

Everything bad that ever happens is somehow a trial from God designed to test your faith and character, and yet everything good that ever happens is just God's mercy and blessing?

Anyone want to explain to me how people believe both this and that they are sensible, rational people? You can't have it both ways.

Person is involved in a car accident - it's just a trial from God designed to test your faith!
Person wins the lottery - God is blessing you!

[Beetbox]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

[font="Arial"]I'd like to raise a point that's been bothering me for a long, long while.

Great.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Why is it that:

Everything bad that ever happens is somehow a trial from God designed to test your faith and character, and yet everything good that ever happens is just God's mercy and blessing?

2deep4u but nah seriously, you cannot argue with a person about their faith. To people it is like an excuse/escape/reassurance. I have someone looking out for me all the time, he blesses me. It could never be luck or hard work or anything that's just for suckers. When something goes wrong, guess what it is never my fault it is that God up there in the clouds judging me for being bad, so ya guess it wasn't my fault.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Anyone want to explain to me how people believe both this and that they are sensible, rational people? You can't have it both ways.

I think that you just can't argue with people about this. In fact I see many people twist logic daily so that if you follow step by step it is logical but look at the overall picture and it is anything but logical. People just like to manipulate logic and reason to suit themselves and proclaim you can have it both ways.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Person is involved in a car accident - it's just a trial from God designed to test your faith!
Person wins the lottery - God is blessing you!

If I win the lottery it will be due to me buying a lottery ticket and being a lucky son of a...

I've been in a car accident and I was cursing someone but I sure as hell wasn't cursing God. How can someone possibly link a collision between two pieces of metal controlled by people as Gods will? To be very honest, it is like saying "God sunk my battleship.".

[Kate*]

I've wondered about this too. I think the theory behind it is that if you still have faith in God after what He's put you through then He rewards you for it. I have trouble believing that I'm supposed to thank him when somthing really bad happens and I'm not supposed to be mad about it! Sometimes I believe that everything happens for a reason and sometimes I just don't think it's possible that a God that loves us as much as he supposedly does would cause or put us though things that he has the power not to. It just doesn't make sense.

It's like having a severe or chronic medical condition and praying for healing by saying that God will heal you and then if and when he doesn't you say "Well He could cure me if he wanted to, so there must be a reason he didn't"

[Lugez]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

I'd like to raise a point that's been bothering me for a long, long while.

Why is it that:

Everything bad that ever happens is somehow a trial from God designed to test your faith and character, and yet everything good that ever happens is just God's mercy and blessing?

Anyone want to explain to me how people believe both this and that they are sensible, rational people? You can't have it both ways.

Person is involved in a car accident - it's just a trial from God designed to test your faith!
Person wins the lottery - God is blessing you!

I'll try it out. I'm an Atheist too, but I like playing Devil's advocate sometimes.

First off: We need pain, suffering, and "bad things" to happen in our world in order to function properly. Pain tells us when something is wrong, and we act accordingly. Fear of pain can guide us in proper directions. It can also teach us good life lessons and overcoming it can make us stronger people...And it probably does more that I didn't mention. As unpleasant as pain is, you can't deny its usefulness. I'm sure that any reasonable god would see the postives suffering and why he would include it in our world. So with God's plan, this is one way in which he builds "character" to his civilization. These "trials" are designed to test us and make us into better people. It's not God's job to make Earth a paradise because he would actually be doing us a huge disservice if he did that.

Also, you assume that any good thing that happens is "God's blessing," when in fact it could be a new trial altogether. Pain isn't the only way we learn in life. We can also learn through good experiences and actions. Let's use your lottery example. So I won 20 million dollars and I thank God. But now the real test comes. How will I use this new money? Will I buy a huge McMansion? Spend it on material goods? Charity? Drink yourself to a stupor until the cash runs dry? Drive good people out of business? Trials aren't just limited to the bad, but also the good. God tests our faith and builds character through both bad and good experiences.

The "blessing" of God comes when we overcome his trials. When we overcome them, we (ideally) become better and stronger people. And thus, receiving God's blessing (similar to what Kate* said). Overcoming these trials will take a combination of faith within yourself, and God.

I hope this is a good start, at least.

[Of Mike and Men]

You're missing the point, in fact, the thought is rather logical as opposed to irrational. All things are blessings from God, even accursed genocide. Now, please, do not get me wrong, I do not believe this means that genocide is intrinsically good, but indirectly is. That is, we should not be forcing genocide, murders, rapes, etc. because they are good, rather, fight them, but recognize that even when they happen, it is designed to teach a lesson, perhaps. In essence, if God is "testing our faith," it deepens our faith, thus is in fact, good, though the testing of our faith may seem bad. It is not, if the Christian recognizes that only hope, faith, and love are everlasting (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:13). Therefore, everything happening, as bad as it is, is only temporary, produces something more beneficial to something permanent.

I do say, the prophets of the Bible, assuming they are literal figures, had more trials than many people, even through genocide. Yet, they took them as a blessing. In fact, in Acts, the Christians were persecuted for their faith, and trust me, far worse than any recent genocide, as history will show. However, through this, it is recorded that the Christians rejoiced in their suffering. Why? Because they counted it a grace that they could suffer for the name of Christ. In fact, we see this thought in Philippians 4, where Paul says it was good for the churches to share in his suffering.

At any rate, here is what is stated of the prophets of old:

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Now, am I especially saying that I rejoice in someone being raped? Absolutely not. However, I cannot deny that God is purposing that for reason I do not know. I do believe, though, that our world, even with it's imperfections, is perfect. I do not expect anyone to understand that, because I do not even understand it. But I trust it. And as ignorant as I may seem, I won't stop trusting.

[Beetbox]

Originally Posted by cursive

You're missing the point, in fact, the thought is rather logical as opposed to irrational. All things are blessings from God, even accursed genocide. Now, please, do not get me wrong, I do not believe this means that genocide is intrinsically good, but indirectly is. That is, we should not be forcing genocide, murders, rapes, etc. because they are good, rather, fight them, but recognize that even when they happen, it is designed to teach a lesson, perhaps. In essence, if God is "testing our faith," it deepens our faith, thus is in fact, good, though the testing of our faith may seem bad. It is not, if the Christian recognizes that only hope, faith, and love are everlasting (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:13). Therefore, everything happening, as bad as it is, is only temporary, produces something more beneficial to something permanent.

This is what I mean when I say people make small logical links to justify a very illogical idea in a larger context. Whatever you say here you are saying that genocide serves a purpose in so far as it shows us a lesson we needed to learn. However we as people have persecuted each other since the dawn of time and no the genocide didn't stop that. In fact most of histories great lessons are repeated over and over again. Humanity as a whole doesn't learn.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do say, the prophets of the Bible, assuming they are literal figures, had more trials than many people, even through genocide.

Good for them. Really though do you have any proof besides your written word?

Originally Posted by cursive

Yet, they took them as a blessing. In fact, in Acts, the Christians were persecuted for their faith, and trust me, far worse than any recent genocide, as history will show.

I would like to see what is worse than wiping them out? I mean that is a pretty raw deal can't really get much worse than non existence eh?

Originally Posted by cursive

However, through this, it is recorded that the Christians rejoiced in their suffering. Why? Because they counted it a grace that they could suffer for the name of Christ.

No offense but when I hear of people rejoicing in their people being wiped out so they can serve a higher being I think cult. Now I know Christianity isn't a cult by many definitions but you are doing a good job of making it look that way.

Originally Posted by cursive

In fact, we see this thought in Philippians 4, where Paul says it was good for the churches to share in his suffering.

At any rate, here is what is stated of the prophets of old:

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

To be very honest if you have no proof besides a written verse I'm going to have to say this: If I was told every bad thing that happened to me was a trial by some god I'd be pretty pissed off. Not only that but I wouldn't be rejoicing I'd be thinking I need a new religion. I cannot understand why people worship something like that. Being nihilist I gladly don't have that problem.

Originally Posted by cursive

Now, am I especially saying that I rejoice in someone being raped? Absolutely not. However, I cannot deny that God is purposing that for reason I do not know.

Well if a God does that to someone than that God is someone I would have no respect for. That paints the picture of a tyrannical leader. He should be treated the same way as the rapist who Christians would despise. That's the puzzling thing here, you despise the rapist but you rejoice at God for allowing you to suffer for him so you can receive his rewards.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do believe, though, that our world, even with it's imperfections, is perfect. I do not expect anyone to understand that, because I do not even understand it. But I trust it. And as ignorant as I may seem, I won't stop trusting.

That very statement screams of illogical reasoning and without being able to back up this belief it is a null point. I mean it relies solely on faith and that is something I cannot understand. How can people place everything in faith. It screams of illogical reasoning.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Everything bad that ever happens is somehow a trial from God designed to test your faith and character, and yet everything good that ever happens is just God's mercy and blessing?

Anyone want to explain to me how people believe both this and that they are sensible, rational people? You can't have it both ways.

It's simply a rather weak attempt to uphold the notion that their God is benevolent and omniscient.

Originally Posted by cursive

You're missing the point, in fact, the thought is rather logical as opposed to irrational. All things are blessings from God, even accursed genocide. Now, please, do not get me wrong, I do not believe this means that genocide is intrinsically good, but indirectly is. That is, we should not be forcing genocide, murders, rapes, etc. because they are good, rather, fight them, but recognize that even when they happen, it is designed to teach a lesson, perhaps. In essence, if God is "testing our faith," it deepens our faith, thus is in fact, good, though the testing of our faith may seem bad.

So, what you're saying, is: some things may seem bad, but are good on an abstract level -- however, we should still try to fight them even though they do pose a net benefit in some metaphysical way? If it does more good than bad, in the long run, because apparently "only hope, faith, and love are everlasting", then why would you want to stop it? You're dodging the issue in every direction you turn. I'm not seeing your "rather logical" point.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do say, the prophets of the Bible, assuming they are literal figures, had more trials than many people, even through genocide. Yet, they took them as a blessing....However, through this, it is recorded that the Christians rejoiced in their suffering.
...
Now, am I especially saying that I rejoice in someone being raped? Absolutely not. However, I cannot deny that God is purposing that for reason I do not know.

...wasn't your example wholly directed to the fact that Christians in the past rejoiced in suffering "far worse than any recent genocide"? Giving an example in support of your argument, and then stating that it doesn't apply to you, personally...but that it still holds soundly for reasons you can't understand? Erm...Not the best form, my friend.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do believe, though, that our world, even with it's imperfections, is perfect. I do not expect anyone to understand that, because I do not even understand it.

...
Your logic astounds me. Truly.

[DinestyX]

Alright, I'm not going to fight over religions. I'm just going to try and answer the question before leaving.

Alright. Imagine there are two people. One has lived their lives by themselves, having to take care of themselves and suffer for their mistakes. The other was spoiled rotten and pretty much just got a slap on the wrist for everything they did wrong. Now, the world is cruel. When they both are out on their own the same horrible thing happens to both people. Who would do the best at dealing with this situation? The person who had suffered in life of course. The one that had been spoiled and sheltered all their life wouldn't know how to deal with something like this, and therefore wouldn't know how to get through it. On the other hand the person who had a hard life knew suffering and they were stronger for it. They weren't strangers to pain, and knew how to fight through it so they could get back on their feet and make their life better.

The bible says that God will never put something in our lives that we can't make it through (though I know something it sure as hell feels like he does). God does this to make us stronger in life, so we'll be able to make it through all the pain we'll go through in a cruel sin filled world. God puts good things in our lives because he loves us and wants to bless us, but he also knows spoiling us with good things will only end up hurting us if he doesn't make us strong as well with bad things.

I hope that makes sense.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by cursive

In essence, if God is "testing our faith," it deepens our faith, thus is in fact, good, though the testing of our faith may seem bad. It is not, if the Christian recognizes that only hope, faith, and love are everlasting (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:13). Therefore, everything happening, as bad as it is, is only temporary, produces something more beneficial to something permanent.

So you're saying anything that is bad is actually beneficial because it tests faith? That's like saying crime is good because it tests the moral boundaries of society (i.e. Durkheim). However, if something in this way is good, then we want it to continue, so it's like saying we want crime in society because it always will test moral boundaries despite whatever damage it may cause. Using your words though, if genocide is "indirectly good", then why not let it keep happening? The more it happens, the more people can fight against it. In sum, you've encouraged genocide, all other crimes and harmful things because they can indirectly be good through god's blessing by testing faith.

If you want such horrible things to keep happening for the reason aforementioned, how do any benefits become permanent? That is, suppose a murder occurs, tests people's faith, people benefit and something "permanent" happens. However, once a genocide occurs, it challenges everything just like the murder did, so nothing becomes permanent, everything is in flux.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do say, the prophets of the Bible, assuming they are literal figures, had more trials than many people, even through genocide. Yet, they took them as a blessing. In fact, in Acts, the Christians were persecuted for their faith, and trust me, far worse than any recent genocide, as history will show. However, through this, it is recorded that the Christians rejoiced in their suffering. Why? Because they counted it a grace that they could suffer for the name of Christ. In fact, we see this thought in Philippians 4, where Paul says it was good for the churches to share in his suffering.
Now, am I especially saying that I rejoice in someone being raped? Absolutely not.

This is one mass of contradiction after contradiction mainly because of the bolded text. . You give an example in Acts of how the Christians were persecuted but from the bolded text, you separate yourself from them by saying you wouldn't rejoice in suffering like they did. Another contradiction is you previously said how all bad things are indirectly good. Like any sane person, I would think being raped is pretty bloody awful but you frown upon those who do "bad things" despite wanting "bad things" because they can actually be good. In other words, you approve of the crime and its effect but you disapprove of the offender. It's like saying you like robberies because they can be good but you reject the robbers being good.


However, I cannot deny that God is purposing that for reason I do not know. I do believe, though, that our world, even with it's imperfections, is perfect.

Originally Posted by cursive

I do not expect anyone to understand that, because I do not even understand it.

You cant agree or disagree with something you don't understand because it's shooting blindly in the dark. If you don't understand it, then how can you be explaining it? You've shot yourself in the foot.

Originally Posted by cursive

But I trust it. And as ignorant as I may seem, I won't stop trusting.

Again, how can you trust it when you don't know what it is? To put it into context, suppose I had no clue what biological evolution was but believed it anyway and thought it was true. I'd be a great supporter for people who understand it but effectively that makes me a clueless cheerleader.

Originally Posted by cursive

You're missing the point, in fact, the thought is rather logical as opposed to irrational.

Giving everything above and the fact you admit to not understand it, I fail to see where the logic is.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by DinestyX

Alright, I'm not going to fight over religions. I'm just going to try and answer the question before leaving.

There is a difference between discussing, debating and fighting. This thread is a debate.

Originally Posted by DinestyX

Alright. Imagine there are two people. One has lived their lives by themselves, having to take care of themselves and suffer for their mistakes. The other was spoiled rotten and pretty much just got a slap on the wrist for everything they did wrong. Now, the world is cruel. When they both are out on their own the same horrible thing happens to both people. Who would do the best at dealing with this situation? The person who had suffered in life of course. The one that had been spoiled and sheltered all their life wouldn't know how to deal with something like this, and therefore wouldn't know how to get through it. On the other hand the person who had a hard life knew suffering and they were stronger for it. They weren't strangers to pain, and knew how to fight through it so they could get back on their feet and make their life better.

The bible says that God will never put something in our lives that we can't make it through (though I know something it sure as hell feels like he does). God does this to make us stronger in life, so we'll be able to make it through all the pain we'll go through in a cruel sin filled world. God puts good things in our lives because he loves us and wants to bless us, but he also knows spoiling us with good things will only end up hurting us if he doesn't make us strong as well with bad things.

I hope that makes sense.

I'm going to quote a good friend on TeenHelp who has already nicely summarized what you said in one sentence (andwho probably will also post in this thread soon):

"[G]od is a cosmic toddler playing with his action figures in the sandbox" - Xujhan
http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/p682244-post45/

[Lugez]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'm going to quote a good friend on TeenHelp who has already nicely summarized what you said in one sentence (andwho probably will also post in this thread soon):

"[G]od is a cosmic toddler playing with his action figures in the sandbox" - Xujhan
http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/p682244-post45/

Could you explain how DinestyX's explanation amounts to God being a toddler with toys? I don't see the connection.

[Marguerite]

That's always irritated me. I don't mind if people say it about themselves (if they want to comfort themselves with their faith, then I'm glad they can) but when people say those kind of things to other people, it really makes me angry.

If I ever lose someone, get sick, come into extreme financial hardship, get injured etc etc and someone says "this is God's way of testing your faith" or "God has a plan for everything" I'd have to stop myself from punching them in the face.

I think it's so insensitive. Try to make sense of your pain, fine, but please don't try to make sense of mine. There IS no sense in losing a child or finding out you have cancer. If there is a God, and he would really inflict that on people just to 'test' them, then he's one sadistic bastard.

[Xujhan]

"All good things are blessings and all bad things are tests" isn't necessarily irrational - in that it isn't self-contradictory - but both claims rest on the premises "God exists and god is all-good/all-loving." The real issue I think is acceptance of bad premises, not acceptance of the conclusions that follow from them.

Originally Posted by Lugez

Could you explain how DinestyX's explanation amounts to God being a toddler with toys? I don't see the connection.

Well hey, I recognize that quote!

I think the connection is meant to be with the idea that every event that happens in life comes directly from god; either as a blessing or as a test.

[DollFace]

i dont believe that.
Its always a test--a car accident, its a test.
winning a lottery, also a test.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by DollFace

i dont believe that.
Its always a test--a car accident, its a test.
winning a lottery, also a test.

Hm...what about the people who suffer, but who have never had exposure to the religion that correlates to the correct god?

Why would a god test, if he is supposed to love unconditionally?

Also, if he is omniscient and omnipotent, then shouldn't he be able to foresee your responses to bad situations before you actually experience them, and judge based on that -- while still having complete control over what actually happens? If he "tests" humans, it implies that he doesn't know how they will respond, and he contradicts the notion of both an omniscient and omnipotent god... and there's hardly a good reason to call him "God" at all.

I think the argument against benevolence, in this case, has clearly been made...(if he exists) he is simply not benevolent, because he causes suffering of those who have no way of responding in a manner cohesive to the religion to which he correlates. One could even argue that causing suffering of any kind, or allowing suffering to happen, contradicts the nature of a completely benevolent being.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by DollFace

i dont believe that.
Its always a test--a car accident, its a test.
winning a lottery, also a test.

How? If you're willing to say that regardless of what happens, it's still God, and it's still down to either his infinite goodness or his mysticism, then are you not just blindly following something you don't understand?

[DollFace]

Jeez both of you, wherever i go you seem to gang up on me.
This i know the answer to.

God tests everyone, no matter what the religion.
Well of course He forsees everything, but God gave humans choices. Imagine this: someone gets sent to hell because God knew that the person was going to kill people. What will that person say? "you cant send me to hell because i didnt do it" which is true, he didnt do anything. He didnt have a choice. Thats what God does, he gives us choices.

The benevolent bit: whatever bad happens to us is due to our sins. We sin and God pardons much of what we do, however when something bad happens it is a chance for us to reflect, to ask "why is this happeneing to me?" a chance for a person to return from his sin.

MonsterCosmonaut, i dont really grasp at what you are saying, explain more plz.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by DollFace

Well of course He forsees everything, but God gave humans choices.

Imagine this: someone gets sent to hell because God knew that the person was going to kill people. What will that person say? "you cant send me to hell because i didnt do it" which is true, he didnt do anything.

He didnt have a choice. Thats what God does, he gives us choices.

I think I might actually have a headache now...

Originally Posted by DollFace

The benevolent bit: whatever bad happens to us is due to our sins.

Does this include those who are too young to willingly commit sin?

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

Hm...what about the people who suffer, but who have never had exposure to the religion that correlates to the correct god?

Why would a god test, if he is supposed to love unconditionally?

Also, if he is omniscient and omnipotent, then shouldn't he be able to foresee your responses to bad situations before you actually experience them, and judge based on that -- while still having complete control over what actually happens? If he "tests" humans, it implies that he doesn't know how they will respond, and he contradicts the notion of both an omniscient and omnipotent god... and there's hardly a good reason to call him "God" at all.

I think the argument against benevolence, in this case, has clearly been made...(if he exists) he is simply not benevolent, because he causes suffering of those who have no way of responding in a manner cohesive to the religion to which he correlates. One could even argue that causing suffering of any kind, or allowing suffering to happen, contradicts the nature of a completely benevolent being.

I am basing this off the Bible as my user name, user title and signature all show I am Christian. The fall caused suffering, God does NOT want people to suffer he WANTED a perfect world.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

I am basing this off the Bible as my user name, user title and signature all show I am Christian.

Great.

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

The fall caused suffering, God does NOT want people to suffer he WANTED a perfect world.

Why did he deliberately make one that he knew would not succeed as such? If the other things you claim about God are to be accepted as true, in the scope of a debate, stating that he definitively wanted a perfect world would cause a whole range of contradictions. Also, be more precise with what you mean by "perfect" -- discussions like these all too frequently devolve into "Well, the world's 'perfect' the way it is, so everything works out."

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

Great.
Why did he deliberately make one that he knew would not succeed as such? If the other things you claim about God are to be accepted as true, in the scope of a debate, stating that he definitively wanted a perfect world would cause a whole range of contradictions. Also, be more precise with what you mean by "perfect" -- discussions like these all too frequently devolve into "Well, the world's perfect the way it is."

He wanted to give us free will just as he has because he made us in his image. If he did not give us the choice to do right or wrong obey him or not. What I mean by perfect is no suffering or pain.

[DollFace]

Ok, so when i wrote "he didnt have a choice", that was part of my little imaginary story. ill repeat it in a better way for you.
He forsees everything, but God gave humans choices. Imagine this: someone gets sent to hell because God knew that the person was going to kill people. What will that person say? "you cant send me to hell because i didnt do it" which is true, he didnt do anything. He didnt have a choice when God sent him to hell because he forsaw everything. the person will think "what did i do, where was my choice" *end of little imaginary story*
So you see, thats why He gives us choices so when some one does something wrong or right they know why they are being punished or rewared.

This doesnt count for people who are too young to commit sin, all children are clear of sins till they are older.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

I am basing this off the Bible as my user name, user title and signature all show I am Christian. The fall caused suffering, God does NOT want people to suffer he WANTED a perfect world.

God's ultimately responsible for everything. So if he wanted a perfect world, why did he make it imperfect? Why did he also make it so that eve would eat the apple? the idea of free will is bullshit - nobody has freewill. We're only able to act because of a variety of millions of social and psychological reasons. Everything is predeterminate because of the way the universe works - it's a depressing thought, but it's true. Things follow a rhythm, a pattern - one apparently decided by God. He knows the choices everyone will make so really there's no choice at all.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

He wanted to give us free will just as he has because he made us in his image. If he did not give us the choice to do right or wrong obey him or not. What I mean by perfect is no suffering or pain.

Based on this, there are two general paths: one, in which God is not omnipotent/omniscient and did not foresee that humans would royally f*ck everything up (assuming that he wanted to create a perfect world), or that he did foresee it and you're misled about his intentions.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

God's ultimately responsible for everything. So if he wanted a perfect world, why did he make it imperfect? Why did he also make it so that eve would eat the apple? the idea of free will is bullshit - nobody has freewill. We're only able to act because of a variety of millions of social and psychological reasons. Everything is predeterminate because of the way the universe works - it's a depressing thought, but it's true. Things follow a rhythm, a pattern - one apparently decided by God. He knows the choices everyone will make so really there's no choice at all.

Wait a minute, Do you mean to tell me that someone does not have the choice to murder someone or not.
As for it being no choice yes there still is
I can know you will do something and not want you to or advise it ECT.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

Wait a minute, Do you mean to tell me that someone does not have the choice to murder someone or not.
As for it being no choice yes there still is
I can know you will do something and not want you to or advise it ECT.

Whether or not I want to is not part of whether I will or not - if you think about it, we're not entirely responsible for our actions, because we're only acting upon the input the universe puts upon us. I can't really choose whether those inputs will lead me to murder someone. it's an issue that's been raised with the law by a number of philosophers.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Whether or not I want to is not part of whether I will or not - if you think about it, we're not entirely responsible for our actions, because we're only acting upon the input the universe puts upon us. I can't really choose whether those inputs will lead me to murder someone. it's an issue that's been raised with the law by a number of philosophers.

by that then we should not punish people who break the law.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

by that then we should not punish people who break the law.

Thats the exact issue raised by these philosophers. However, they accept that this mindset is very dangerous should it become prevalent in our society - we become a society with no laws, no rules, no punishment, no restrictions on what can do - and that effect would lead to so much more crime. Most accept that while, philosophically, it's wrong, it's a necessity to prevent greater evil.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Thats the exact issue raised by these philosophers. However, they accept that this mindset is very dangerous should it become prevalent in our society - we become a society with no laws, no rules, no punishment, no restrictions on what can do - and that effect would lead to so much more crime. Most accept that while, philosophically, it's wrong, it's a necessity to prevent greater evil.

but if that is true then the idea of justice and fairness could NEVER stand in the law not even try.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

but if that is true then the idea of justice and fairness could NEVER stand in the law not even try.

I'm not sure what you mean?

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by DollFace

He forsees everything, but God gave humans choices. Imagine this: someone gets sent to hell because God knew that the person was going to kill people. What will that person say? "you cant send me to hell because i didnt do it" which is true, he didnt do anything. He didnt have a choice when God sent him to hell because he forsaw everything. the person will think "what did i do, where was my choice" *end of little imaginary story*
So you see, thats why He gives us choices so when some one does something wrong or right they know why they are being punished or rewared.

I understand what your example tries to convey now.

However, as MonsterCosmonaut said -- the notion that he foresaw everything that we now consider "free will" means that in essence, even if we are under the impression that we have a "choice", he could have forced nature to take a completely different path (or even just slightly different) in order for us to make different "choices" -- and essentially lead us directly to the choice in question. Basically, what your example stands to show is that while God already knows what's going to happen, he's going to wait until you actually do it to punish you for it. Where lies the "choice" in that?

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

I'm not sure what you mean?

Humans make mistakes as it is and so human justice is therefore not perfect. People who did things sometimes get away with bad things while some people are serving time for crimes they did not commit. However if it is true that people do not have choices/free will then it is pointless to even try for justice because the people who commit crimes can not help it.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

Humans make mistakes as it is and so human justice is therefore not perfect. People who did things sometimes get away with bad things while some people are serving time for crimes they did not commit. However if it is true that people do not have choices/free will then it is pointless to even try for justice because the people who commit crimes can not help it.

It is not entirely pointless - if we did not punish them, they would cause more harm, and more people would do it. We're just stopping some of the evil I guess.

[ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

It is not entirely pointless - if we did not punish them, they would cause more harm, and more people would do it. We're just stopping some of the evil I guess.

no more people would not do it if it is already decided who will and who will not then it does not matter no more people will do it if we punish them or not.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

no more people would not do it if it is already decided who will and who will not then it does not matter no more people will do it if we punish them or not.

No, the reason why they do it is because of the forces acting upon them. If we place a great force upon them, namely the Law, then they are less likely.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

no more people would not do it if it is already decided who will and who will not then it does not matter no more people will do it if we punish them or not.

You're missing the point I think; if we're talking about a strictly deterministic universe then it's not just the criminals' actions that are predetermined; ours are too, as are those of the justice system. Essentially, this entire conversation is pointless. That's why people generally gloss over the possibility of no free will; it doesn't actually get us anywhere.

That said, acting as moral agents we still recognize that people's actions are never entirely freely chosen; everyone is a product of their nature, their environment, their upbringing, and a healthy dose of pure chance. Morally speaking, we do not punish wrongdoers because they deserve to be punished. Eye-for-an-eye justice is barbaric and immoral. We punish wrongdoers because it is the only way we have to minimize the harm they do to society. If there magically existed a way to prevent such people from doing harm that did not require then to be punished, that would be a morally better alternative.

[Ambiance]

I don't really see how this is contradictory. You put up with some bad stuff, you get some good stuff. It's like Karma. Unless what you're saying isn't about what's going on with each person personally, but rather everything in the world as a whole.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by iLikeToMoveIt

I don't really see how this is contradictory. You put up with some bad stuff, you get some good stuff. It's like Karma. Unless what you're saying isn't about what's going on with each person personally, but rather everything in the world as a whole.

I'm saying that if you attribute all good things and all bad things to God's greatness, you're blinding yourself to the truth of what's happening. If you're hit by a car and you say it's just a test from God, or that God works in mysterious ways, then you're not opening yourself to the possibility that MAYBE God might not be a part of it, and it might be that you were actually just hit by a car because your God isn't there to protect you.

[DollFace]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

I understand what your example tries to convey now.

However, as MonsterCosmonaut said -- the notion that he foresaw everything that we now consider "free will" means that in essence, even if we are under the impression that we have a "choice", he could have forced nature to take a completely different path (or even just slightly different) in order for us to make different "choices" -- and essentially lead us directly to the choice in question. Basically, what your example stands to show is that while God already knows what's going to happen, he's going to wait until you actually do it to punish you for it. Where lies the "choice" in that?

God leads us to certain things, like walking across a street. (just an example) Then he gives us a choice, do we cross blindly and get hit by a car? or do we choose to be careful and look before we cross? That is our choice. But sometimes He tests us, and even though we looked before we crossed the street, we still get hit. That is a test. God leads us to things then gives us choices, sometimes testing us, be it a test where something bad happens or a test where something good happens.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by DollFace

God leads us to certain things, like walking across a street. (just an example) Then he gives us a choice, do we cross blindly and get hit by a car? or do we choose to be careful and look before we cross? That is our choice. But sometimes He tests us, and even though we looked before we crossed the street, we still get hit. That is a test. God leads us to things then gives us choices, sometimes testing us, be it a test where something bad happens or a test where something good happens.

Free will is an illusion.