Ghosts

[Maloo]

Whelllll. I was reading through a thread that got completely out of control and turned into a "ghosts don't exists/yes they do" argument, and I thought I'd ask people's opinions in a thread where it actually belongs.

So, everyone, thoughts on ghosts? Have you ever seen one? Believe they don't exist? Why?

[QuantumModulus]

I've never seen a "ghost", and I believe they exist no more than I believe in vampires, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster -- which, coincidentally, have the same types of eyewitness "evidence" as ghosts do.

Just to set the record straight, and so that people here don't get all fussy and complain when their arguments are contradicted, is this thread intended to evolve into a debate at some point?

[Lugez]

I do believe there are elements in our universe that we have yet to fully understand. With this said, I'm open to the idea that the concept of "ghosts" may fall under this realm. I wouldn't go as far to say that I believe in them, but I wouldn't dismiss it either.

[Pelios]

Sure why not? Not like Casper ghosts but I do believe there is spirits/souls out there.

[Xujhan]

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are faeries at the bottom of it too?

[Maloo]

NOTE: I DO NOT WANT THIS THREAD TURNING INTO A DEBATE, OR BEING MOVED TO THE DEBATES SECTION.

Good idea, Jorge

I personally have seen a ghost, so I definitely believe in them. I think it's kind of cool, actually.

[Magic.]

I do believe they exist because I've seen things I believe to be ghosts. I saw things at my grandma's house as a child which my mum and aunt later said they had also seen as children. I don't know if it's coincidence that we could describe the exact same things, or imgination or just plain cr*p but I personally believe they were ghosts/spirits. And as noone seems to be able to prove one way or the other, our beliefs are all we have

[Nostalgia]

İ have seen ghosts. I have seen more than one. I know ghosts exısıt and I do belıeve ın them. My hıgh school was haunted. It used to be a convent for nuns. And We got told that some of the nuns stıll haunt the buıldıng. And such lıke. I once saw a man ın vıctorıan clothıng walk ınto a wall and vanısh, that was actuallay really scary. And another tıme İ was walkıng down the road and was walkıng behınd thıs man and he just vanıshed ıt was lıke he was there and when ı next looked he had gone. he had not even dıssapered down a lane or anythıng he had just complelty vanıshed. I have also caught lıght orbs on my dıgıtal camera ın haunted locatıons. And ın one of the haunted locatıons I even manged to catch a shadowy fıgure on camera. I deffınatley belıeve that ghosts and spırıts exısıt.

[Le bonheur*]

I've seen a ghost so I definitely believe in them.

[DollFace]

I wont believe it until i see it ...

[Xujhan]

Well this is seriously undermining what little fiath I had left in science education.

For those who are interested: seeing something yourself is actually not good reason to believe anything beyond the mundane. The human brain has evolved to be hypersensitive to patterns (and especially faces), to the extent that it often imagines a pattern that isn't actually there. If you see a face in the shadows, or hear words in the wind, or any such thing, it's much more likely that your mind is playing tricks on you than that what you thought you saw or heard was actually there.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Well this is seriously undermining what little fiath I had left in science education.

For those who are interested: seeing something yourself is actually not good reason to believe anything beyond the mundane. The human brain has evolved to be hypersensitive to patterns (and especially faces), to the extent that it often imagines a pattern that isn't actually there. If you see a face in the shadows, or hear words in the wind, or any such thing, it's much more likely that your mind is playing tricks on you than that what you thought you saw or heard was actually there.

Then how do you explain my friend and I seeing the same little girl, on two different occasions? (By that I mean that I saw her one day, my friend saw her a few months later)

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Maloo

Then how do you explain my friend and I seeing the same little girl, on two different occasions? (By that I mean that I saw her one day, my friend saw her a few months later)

Careful...you said you didn't want a debate.

[Celestial.]

I'm open to the idea.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Maloo

Then how do you explain my friend and I seeing the same little girl, on two different occasions? (By that I mean that I saw her one day, my friend saw her a few months later)

Without knowing anything else at all about the situation? Could be anything. Flashbulb memory, groupthink, coincidence, or maybe you just actually saw a real girl. The fact that there were several months between the two make it even more likely that it's a trick of the mind; the human brain is not at all good at accurately keeping track of long-term memories. If you haven't studied any psychology, I think you should; it's a very interesting subject and very enlightening in areas such as this. A great many experiences that seem fantasticly unlikely and important are actually very, very common.

[Cosmo]

I think Xujhan has already said everything I was already going to say..

And, regarding that thread, I'm prepared to tolerate people's beliefs regardless of what they are; however, as the phrase goes, your right to swing your fist ends at my face. Certain beliefs are unsuitable to state in certain situations, and in that situation it was actually dangerous. I regret not a single word I said.

[Snufkin]

I 100% believe in ghosts, spirits, or whatever you want to identify them as.

[Sea Monkey]

I believe in souls, and being able to 'sense' these souls. But whether this falls under actually seeing "ghosts" I really don't know. People I know claim to have seen "ghosts", but I'm not entirely sure. It's something I have yet to discover personally, but I definately believe in the soul.

[Reverie.]

Yeah, I believe in spirits/ghosts. We've had some pretty weird goings on where I live, and where my family live. we've heard voices, the piano has played, seen shadows...my mum saw a dip in the end of her bed as if someone was sitting there too. Many of my family have also had the sensation of being touched. I've been bought up with my mums side of the family telling me stories of them growing up in a house where they'd hear footsteps on the stairs that sounded like children playing, and seen things they can't explain, so obviously I've gained an interest in this and I'd say I do believe, yeah.

[ReluctantPegasister]

I've had close friends they've seen or felt ghosts, from feeling ghosts move them, smelling them, or getting messages written in the steamed mirror.

I've never personally seen/heard/felt a ghost and I doubt they truly exist.

[Eldora]

I definately do. Lemme tell you this: You can't grow up in WV without believing in ghosts. My grandma has seen many things, and so have a few of my aunts. My mom has seen things. I personally haven't seen anything, but I once heard the ghost of a baby crying in a graveyard -- and there was absolutely no possible way for a baby to be around, as it was well past midnight, and no sane person would have been out that late, especially with a newborn baby.

[Casey.]

Of course I believe in ghosts and spirits, but then again I am Pagan. I do not see ghosts, no, nor do I want to. But I can feel the presences of other spirits sometimes. I do not believe that ghosts haunt places because they are cursed, and I know some spirits can be mean, but rarely are they harmful. Spirits just haven't moved on, or maybe they don't want to live the living world. Honestly, it doesn't matter if one person believes that they exist or not. It really doesn't. Maybe science can't prove it, but there are many things that science can't prove or study.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Without knowing anything else at all about the situation? Could be anything. Flashbulb memory, groupthink, coincidence, or maybe you just actually saw a real girl. The fact that there were several months between the two make it even more likely that it's a trick of the mind; the human brain is not at all good at accurately keeping track of long-term memories. If you haven't studied any psychology, I think you should; it's a very interesting subject and very enlightening in areas such as this. A great many experiences that seem fantasticly unlikely and important are actually very, very common.

I was sleeping on my friend's futon, and woke up at about 5am. I looked over toward their daughters' room, and there was this little girl standing next to the tv. I stared at her for a little while, she stared back. I eventually looked away, and she was gone when I looked back.

My friend was doing laundry very late one night, and turned to see the little girl standing in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room. She walked toward the little girl, who then ran away and disappeared.

I think it's awesome I just want to know how you'd explain it if you don't think ghosts could possibly exist

[QuantumModulus]

Lissa, I feel I must ask: did you tell your friend about what you think you saw, before he/she claimed to see the same thing? Or were the two completely independent?

Originally Posted by Maloo

I just want to know how you'd explain it if you don't think ghosts could possibly exist

For me, it's far less about thinking they couldn't possibly exist, but rather not finding any sort of substantive evidence other than eyewitness testimony, which is subject to more error than most (if not all) types of physical evidence.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

Lissa, I feel I must ask: did you tell your friend about what you think you saw, before he/she claimed to see the same thing? Or were the two completely independent?

That's the awesome part about it. I told her husband about it, he made me promise to not tell her because she would freak out and want to move. So no one ever said anything to her.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Maloo

I was sleeping on my friend's futon, and woke up at about 5am. I looked over toward their daughters' room, and there was this little girl standing next to the tv. I stared at her for a little while, she stared back. I eventually looked away, and she was gone when I looked back.

My friend was doing laundry very late one night, and turned to see the little girl standing in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room. She walked toward the little girl, who then ran away and disappeared.

I think it's awesome I just want to know how you'd explain it if you don't think ghosts could possibly exist

It's not so much that I think they couldn't possibly exist, but that I think that evidence and scrutiny have shown them not to. Like essentially all supernatural claims, not a single ghost story has stood up to scientific scrutiny. If ghosts were real, I'd expect at least a few to be reasonably convincing. The human senses are easily fooled by comparison, so whenever personal experience - even my own - conflicts with scientific study, I'll go with the science until I'm presented with a very compelling reason not to.

[♥ Choir. ♥]

I don't believe in ghosts, I believe that after death a spirit is sent to where it belongs, either heaven, hell, or purgatory. However I do believe in echoes, footprints of someone has left behind. I believe that they reply themselves time and time again, major incidents in a person's life, or maybe the calmest point of a day where something terrible happened. I believe that based on the velocity of what happened decides on how often the memory is replayed. For example, Battle of Gettysburg, I believe that every day memories of that battle are played, but on the anniversary of the battle it is greater. Last summer I was in Gettysburg for the anniversary, and a picture I took in the battlefield, and then a picture I took in the Jenni Wade House both had something odd in it. I see no reason to fear 'haunted' places, everything that happened or is happening is just an echo.

However if there is a poltergeist or demon involved, those I believe should be feared. Poltergeists are created from bad energy, the worst ones can kill. Demons are Satan's angels, not something to mess around with.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

I don't believe in ghosts because there is no evidence they exist. The only evidence is shaky eyewitness anecdotal evidence. Furthermore, it seems those who claim to have seen a ghost were either told of a mythical story regarding the ghost. For example, SquidPid said they saw a ghost in their school only after being told their school was haunted by nuns. Ironically, the ghost she saw was wearing clothing that would probably would have been found at the time the nuns were alive in the school. This results in a rather large problem: are the eyewitness anecdotal pieces of evidence driven by one's preconceived notions? That is, if someone who did not believe in ghosts went to a "haunted area", would they see the same ghost IFF they were not told the place was haunted? When someone tells someone else there was a monster, ghost, boogeyman, etc... in an area, people may be frightened even if they don't believe in the supernatural/paranormal, however, they are expecting to see such creatures. If they see something ambiguous, they are more likely to say it's a ghost, monster, etc..., so it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Originally Posted by Magic.

And as noone seems to be able to prove one way or the other, our beliefs are all we have

The burden of proof is on the person claiming A exists. If you cannot prove A exists, then I cannot prove A's non-existence.

Originally Posted by Maloo

I was sleeping on my friend's futon, and woke up at about 5am. I looked over toward their daughters' room, and there was this little girl standing next to the tv. I stared at her for a little while, she stared back. I eventually looked away, and she was gone when I looked back.

My friend was doing laundry very late one night, and turned to see the little girl standing in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room. She walked toward the little girl, who then ran away and disappeared.

I think it's awesome I just want to know how you'd explain it if you don't think ghosts could possibly exist

There's an issue on one's visual perception. Even if you have 20/20 eyesight, you can still claim to see things that are not truly there. The simplest example is a visual illusion, such as Grid Illusion (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d_illusion.svg), which may be similar to a ghost in that you "see" it one second then the next second you don't. Or, the Kanizsa Square (http://portraitlaboratorium.nl/Blog/...03/kanizsa.gif) and Kanizsa Triangle (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...iangle.svg.png), in which you may perceive the square or triangle to have solid lines when in fact it doesn't.

To give a statistical number, around 70% of exonerations from wrongful convictions were from faulty eyewitness testimony. It's not that people's eyesight is shit, rather their memory and visual perception are easily fooled. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n7j23157434765l8/ (page 79).

Another important issue isn't asking "have you seen a ghost?" but "what causes a ghost?" or "why do ghosts exist?" If you believe in ghosts, then surely you must believe they exist for a certain reason. The idea that a ghost comes from a dead being to roam the Earth hasn't been shown at all and there is no eyewitness evidence to this. Initially, people pointed to the weight loss a deceased person has as the weight of the soul leaving their body, however, this was later explained to be due to the dying and decomposition processes.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If you believe in ghosts, then surely you must believe they exist for a certain reason.

My reason is the fact that I've seen a ghost. I have other reasons, but they're about someone else in my life and I don't feel it's appropriate to disclose any information about them.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Maloo

My reason is the fact that I've seen a ghost. I have other reasons, but they're about someone else in my life and I don't feel it's appropriate to disclose any information about them.

I'm aware you've seen a ghost, that wasn't what the quoted sentence was referring to. Instead it was referring to why do ghosts exist because if you believe they exist, you surely must explain why or how they exist. It's like if I said I believed vampires that turn into bats truly exist because I've seen it happen. However, if would also have to explain why I think a) vampires exist and b) how they turn into bats.

If your other reasons concern why or how ghosts exist, then it's a shame you won't mention them.

[The Morrigan]

Originally Posted by Lugez

I do believe there are elements in our universe that we have yet to fully understand. With this said, I'm open to the idea that the concept of "ghosts" may fall under this realm. I wouldn't go as far to say that I believe in them, but I wouldn't dismiss it either.

This is where I stand on the matter.

I think there are things out that we can't explain or that we haven't even discovered yet and although there's no concrete evidence to suggest that ghosts do exist there isn't any to suggest they don't either. It's kind of like God I guess although in my opinion the likelihood of ghosts being real is far greater than God.

I also agree with Lex regarding the fact of souls but I don't really believe that the souls linger around after death.

[TheBabyEater]

I personally don't believe in ghosts, and if someone suddenly thinks they start seeing ghosts I tell them to see a doctor. I've struggled in the past thinking I was seeing people I knew were long dead, but was diagnosed with multiple mental issues.

However, if someone honestly believes in spirits, I think that's different. To me, believing in everyone having a spirit and the spirit living on past their body makes just as much sense as a bearded man in the sky granting our wishes

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Capt'n Cara

...and although there's no concrete evidence to suggest that ghosts do exist there isn't any to suggest they don't either.

There is a crippling flaw with basing a position or statement on this fact. Lack of evidence for non-existence is not equivalent to evidence for existence. There will never be evidence that suggests that ghosts don't exist, just the same as there will never be evidence that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Instead it was referring to why do ghosts exist because if you believe they exist, you surely must explain why or how they exist.

I dunno, I guess I just don't agree with that at all. I can't explain why or how they exist, nor do I feel a need to.

But please keep in mind that I don't want this thread turning into a debate.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Maloo

I dunno, I guess I just don't agree with that at all. I can't explain why or how they exist, nor do I feel a need to.

But please keep in mind that I don't want this thread turning into a debate.

I'm aware you don't want this to become a debate.

If you believe ghosts exist, then you must believe they come from somewhere. Saying otherwise suggests you may not believe in them because you instead believe you saw a ghost but that's all.

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I'm aware you don't want this to become a debate.

If you believe ghosts exist, then you must believe they come from somewhere. Saying otherwise suggests you may not believe in them because you instead believe you saw a ghost but that's all.

You're really beating a dead horse here. No, I don't have to believe they came from somewhere. Now please drop it, you're not really contributing to the discussion anymore, you're just pushing your opinion which I have already said more than once that I don't agree with. Now please move on.

[JKmadu619]

I feel a little crazy and you know what I'll post here.

As a general rule I do not believe in ghosts, I don't believe that they can make any physical contact with us, or see us.

I do however believe that before going to heaven that dead people wait in a waiting room (as the bible states. It says they will wait for the other people before judgement day) and ocasionally they "Shine through" and we can see them.


- Justin

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

I do however believe that before going to heaven that dead people wait in a waiting room (as the bible states. It says they will wait for the other people before judgement day) and ocasionally they "Shine through" and we can see them.

If they are not ghosts, then what do you label them as?

[JKmadu619]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If they are not ghosts, then what do you label them as?

Ghost, to me implies that they are free roaming spirits who can control their actions. To me they are nothing more than shadows of dead people that ocasionally people see. So I guess they are classified as shadows to me.

- Justin

[ninegirl]

Lack of evidence for non-existence is not equivalent to evidence for existence.

It is. It's the difference between something existing or not. And if it can't be answered, then it is subjective to whatever you think.

I've experienced ghosts and spirits and they're pretty over-hyped due to hollywood. But, in the end, it's all about your worldview and what you believe. I also wonder how someone can expect cold, hard physical evidence for something which is not a physical concept.