"Hell is the better Choice"

[Kyeto-X]

OK, Hear me out! I know this is going to be inflammatory, but I DO have a point to make.

This isn't one of those "I hate Christians, therefore I would want to be as far away from them after death as possible." This came about after a brief thought experiment involving the social outlook of Heaven, and combining that with...what i know about...the psychology of the humanity.

First premise is based on the modern day concept of Heaven. Basically, all who agree that Jesus dying on the cross was the best thing to happen in their lives, and lived in accordance to a finite set of rules will be able to hang out in a perfect place for all eternity. Three things concern me about this, finite set of rules, perfection, and eternity.

The Finite set of rules and lifestyles that will be allowed into Heaven will start to create a super-homogeneous society. Think about it, Everyone who lives there will have the exact same beliefs. There are some that will say that acceptance into heaven is more basic then that, but that is not what I have seen. After you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, there is a social cultural pressure to conform into the rest of the Christiandom, lest you be called out as a fake. Smoking, gone. Drinking, gone. Premarital sex, gone. Heavy metal music, gone. R-rated movies, gone. People will literally rewrite themselves to fit into this group. There becomes an expectation on what a 'good Christian' should be.

So, when you take that, and take that group and only that group offset from the rest of society, this offset group will only have the company of their God, who they are all trying to emulate, and each other, who has the exact same goal. There will be no outside influence, no differing views. If their are, God himself will declare what is right by his Holy wisdom, and no one will discuss it ever again. Soon, there will be no points of disagreement, no discussions. No exchange of social information because why bother. We are all the same. You will end up int he company of 100 Million people and not be able to learn a thing from any of them.

Second point is utmost perfection. Granted, there are times when I wished that cars didn't break down and that my bills will pay themselves, but I am more realistic then that. You see, here on Earth, to quote Assassin's Creed "Nothing is known; Everything is Permitted." Roughly, I take this to mean that because absolutely nothing in reality is absolutely known, We have an infinite amount of space to explore in. Think about it. There is nothing that we have 'known for certian' that hasn't been overthrown by no ideas and new discoveries. Some will point at this as the failure point of the Scientific Method, but i consider it to be it's strength. Everything that we hold dear must and is tested and retested a thousand times over. And even then, it is just waiting for a new fact and a new discovery to come about and knock it off it's feet. Therefore, even in the highly explored fields of Physics and Chemistry, there is an infinite amount of data left to explore. This is because our knowledge of the universe is...imperfect.

Moving slightly away from the Scientific Method, there is another, more basic error in perfection being a key factor in Heaven. There would be nothing to do. In Reality, there is always something more to do. You can never have a nice enough house, enough food to eat, enough vacation with your family. And there are problems that come up at random. Car breaks down on the way to work. Water heater explodes in the middle of the night. Cat barfs on your antique rug. There is always something that could be improved upon in your regular life, because life is imperfect. Thus, there is always a quest to do day in and day out, because you haven't beaten the game.

However, after you have finished the game to 100%, got all of the achievements and all the upgrades, what is it that most players do? Either start over from the beginning or sell it. That is because after 100% perfection as been achieved, there is nothing left to do. Same thing will happen in Heaven. You don't need to work to pay the bills because there is nothing to pay and nothing to pay with. No need to fix the car because decay and rusting have been eliminated. No one will get sick, and thus the entire medical profession is mute. And Any and all questions about the universe and life can be solved by asking the Creator himself. No room for error there. Thus, There is nothing to DO in heaven.

Finally, there is the Eternity concept. Most people have a hard time actually wrapping their heads around eternity, and there for usually think of it as a really long time. But it's not just long, it is infinitely Therefore, you will have all the time in the world, and still have all the time in the world to sit and twiddle your thumbs. Any and all task that you can think of, you can practice until you hit 100% perfection. Want to learn how to slam dunk? You'll have plenty of time for that. Want to write the best novel ever? Sure, Take your time, there is no rush. Want to meet absolutely everyone who every existed?

But what? Heaven is prefect. Meaning that there will be no barriers to overcome when completing a task. And since everyone is homogeneous, there is no point in meeting everyone. And since all knowledge can be perfectly obtained from the prefect Creator, there is no point in exploring. And even AFTER you have done all of this pointlessness, you will STILL have eternity to sit and go mad inside your tiny little existence. Heaven, you see, is a worse fate for a finite sentient creature, then being wiped from existence at the time of death.

***

I also, (not related to the rest of the rant) have a strong belief that even if I have sinned in this world (which, I have, I'll admit that) It is fairer for me to pay for my own sins in hell then to allow someone who is blameless to pay them for me. I will take my death and enjoy it. All of this has lead me to choice, willingly, Hell or death over an Eternal life in heaven.

[Cosmo]

That assumes that you retain the same sense of consciousness and/or self if you were to go to heaven. I think it's fair to say that, according to the Bible, it is just an eternal sense of bliss, nothing more.

[Of Mike and Men]

Please note: I am trying to come this as a neutral standpoint, not a Christian standpoint.

As stated, you are assuming we are the same being we are now, in Heaven. However, it's ironic to me that we must limit God and say, "Well, He can't make life better, He can only make it redundant." I have a hard time believe that if God is as powerful as Christians say, that He will just allow us to go on into eternity living a life of redundancy.

Your statements have already been taken into account by many philosophers. Concerning the aspect of eternity, logically speaking, eternal living is pointless. The entire point of watching a movie is to enjoy it, but if the movie had no end, it would be redundant. So it is with life. Thus, I like some of your points.

Despite this, as I aforementioned, I have a hard time believing an infinitely knowledgeable and powerful (however paradoxical that is -- if it is indeed true) God will have an issue with keeping us entertained.

Now, if we examine this from a Christian, God is infinite in every aspect, save evil. We can debate this back and forth about the consistency of this, but is a general accepted Christian truth. Despite how irrational it may sound. Thus, if God is infinite, we have an infinite amount of Someone to get to know. Now, when you love someone, you like to get to know them, thus if God is infinite, why wouldn't we want to learn more of Him for eternity? From a Christian's mind, this must be exciting. Unless we are indeed perfect in knowledge as well. But, I do not find this in the Bible. I find that we are perfect in ethics, not in all other aspects of our beings.

A Christian who believes that Heaven will be eternally joyful, will receive that. Eternal joy. For sake of time, let's say everything you are currently saying is indeed true. Well, would it be irrational to think that perhaps all those things will be JOYFUL for the Christian once in a new body? Do not misunderstand me. I understand, those these sound utterly redundant currently, but as, again, aforementioned, they may not be in our new bodies.

Consider, if, as you say, nothing is known, this is because all information received by us is subjected to the individual, making it relative to that person. Therefore, our current persons would find those things redundant. However, this redundancy is only from our CURRENT perspective, and NOT an OBJECTIVE perspective where those things may actually be BETTER. Thus, in our latter bodies, we may see things objectively and the things mentioned in this thread may be better because we see things more truthfully as opposed to relating to an individual perception.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men

Despite this, as I aforementioned, I have a hard time believing an infinitely knowledgeable and powerful (however paradoxical that is -- if it is indeed true) God will have an issue with keeping us entertained.

This is really what most of the common counterarguments boil down to, I think. "Don't worry, God will fix it." Which is not technically impossible, but is also hardly convincing. The problem is that there really seems to be no consensus idea, or even much of an idea in general, of what heaven actually is. I've heard many more concrete theories of what hell is than I ever have of heaven, and I'm not surprised; I think most people would find it hard to give an account of heaven that actually lives up to th epromises once examined.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

This is really what most of the common counterarguments boil down to, I think. "Don't worry, God will fix it." Which is not technically impossible, but is also hardly convincing. The problem is that there really seems to be no consensus idea, or even much of an idea in general, of what heaven actually is. I've heard many more concrete theories of what hell is than I ever have of heaven, and I'm not surprised; I think most people would find it hard to give an account of heaven that actually lives up to th epromises once examined.

I do not disagree with you, but, if God is real, and it is the Christian God, we must be able to accept that such a God could do the technically impossible, and the hardly convincing.

As far as concrete theories on Hell, you're quite right. Hell is spoken of far more than Heaven. However, in both instances, I do not believe there are proper words to do either of them justice.

I believe that Hell is worse than the Bible describes it, and I believe Heaven is better than the Bible describes it. I believe the words given to both places, or states, are to give a general idea. I.E. Hell -- sad, Heaven -- joyful. But, in a more graphic nature to let us know the seriousness of it. That is, I don't necessarily believe that Hell is a literal place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, nor a endless pit, nor filled with fire and brimstone (as is impossible), but that it is a state of the human soul far worse than the description, and far more painful, and dreadful. Likewise with Heaven, but the opposite. I don't believe we know what Heaven will be like, but that we know God promises joy. The descriptions even given by the OP aren't necessarily found in the Bible, but rather a several mediums portrayal of it.

[TheBabyEater]

As a Satanist, I think we can all guess my viewpoint on this

Personally, if God were to be the God that every Christian I know these days in the hateful bible belt believes, then I'd rather go to Hell than support "Him".

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men

I do not disagree with you, but, if God is real, and it is the Christian God, we must be able to accept that such a God could do the technically impossible, and the hardly convincing.

As far as concrete theories on Hell, you're quite right. Hell is spoken of far more than Heaven. However, in both instances, I do not believe there are proper words to do either of them justice.

I believe that Hell is worse than the Bible describes it, and I believe Heaven is better than the Bible describes it. I believe the words given to both places, or states, are to give a general idea. I.E. Hell -- sad, Heaven -- joyful. But, in a more graphic nature to let us know the seriousness of it. That is, I don't necessarily believe that Hell is a literal place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, nor a endless pit, nor filled with fire and brimstone (as is impossible), but that it is a state of the human soul far worse than the description, and far more painful, and dreadful. Likewise with Heaven, but the opposite. I don't believe we know what Heaven will be like, but that we know God promises joy. The descriptions even given by the OP aren't necessarily found in the Bible, but rather a several mediums portrayal of it.

And this is what I mean. You don't have any conception of what heaven and hell actually are. Saying that something is good or evil - or eveil sad or joyous, to a degree - is a value judgment, and value judgments have to be based on something. If you merely pre-define something as good or evil or joyous or whatever, you just take the piss out of the whole thing. Heaven is or is not joyous based on what it actually is, not simply by virtue of being heaven.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

And this is what I mean. You don't have any conception of what heaven and hell actually are. Saying that something is good or evil - or eveil sad or joyous, to a degree - is a value judgment, and value judgments have to be based on something. If you merely pre-define something as good or evil or joyous or whatever, you just take the piss out of the whole thing. Heaven is or is not joyous based on what it actually is, not simply by virtue of being heaven.

Not necessarily. I'll explain later.