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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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What I can't comprehend - February 11th 2012, 09:32 PM

Why do a lot of christians hate gays? I mean they didnt do anything to you. I know not a lot do, i mean, i know a whole christian family who was so nice to before i was out, and now? guess what....THEY ARE STILL NICE TO ME! now why cant all christians be like that and not hate on gays?


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 11th 2012, 09:40 PM

In an ideal world that would be fantastic Tyler, but in our cynical and selfish world, everybody wants things their way, including Christians, they believe what they believe, and anything outside their world, is wrong..

It's a real shame, but I don't ever think we'll have a world that fully welcomes gays of any sort, just the way it is :-(

But, if someone can't accept you for who you are, they're not worth it! :-)
   
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 11th 2012, 09:43 PM

Leviticus 20:13

Quote:
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Some one can correct that if i've misquoted it or whatever.

But yea that's the reason why. They're stuck in their ancient views towards homosexuality. Yet, I'd like to say that a lot of Christians I know don't hate gays. I think people are becoming more open towards the idea. Just don't watch videos on the westboro baptist church. Your blood will boil

Chill people are becoming more liberal


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 11th 2012, 11:41 PM

Are those people really Christians? Read what the Apostle John wrote:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Are those people really Christians? Read what the Apostle John wrote:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Either that is a contradiction or there are many exceptions to this rule. Just read the post above yours.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~ View Post

Either that is a contradiction or there are many exceptions to this rule. Just read the post above yours.
John came after Leviticus, so in light of the contradiction it is reasonable to assume the latter would take precedence - much as new statutes replace old ones, to use a legal analogy. (I really have to come up with some different analogies here...)

Anyway, to answer the OP: Ignorance, usually. People fear what they don't understand, and if they haven't had first-hand experience of homosexuals then their fear response kicks in, combines with misinformation and distorts everything. It's typical across the whole human race, hence why such responses occur across all cultures and societies irrespective of religious beliefs or lack thereof. Once people have experience, their attitudes tend to change quite quickly.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Leviticus 20:13
Anytime a Christian states Lev 20:13 as part of their reasoning, I laugh because all throughout Leviticus, it states the content was meant for Israeli children. Lev 20:13 was also meant for those who worshiped the god Moloche (or however you spell it) because they frequently engaged in various sexual acts.

It's ignorance both of the person whom they're condemning and quite often of their own belief and bible. For example:
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

I also view their ignorance as a fear-based response because in their view homosexuality is different and they are unable to understand it, so they seek to get rid of it.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 02:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Are those people really Christians? Read what the Apostle John wrote:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
True scotsman fallacy I see? lol

You guys should watch this, it's quite lengthy but funny/annoying nonetheless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSbfs32yCU


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 03:00 PM

If a 'Christian' hates anyone who might be gay, then in my mind they are not true Christians. The bible may say that homosexuality is wrong, but it also says to love thy neighbor, and to treat others with respect. There are no conditions to that. We are not meant to hate anyone, and people who claim to be Christians yet spread messages of hate are not following the bible, even if they think they are. If they do believe homosexuality is wrong (which I don't think is right anyways) then they should not go about showing this hatefully. Christians are meant to spread the message of love, not vindictiveness.

This makes me remember the story of Jesus who came upon an adulterer who was about to be stoned. “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” John 8:7. God does not ask us to judge others. In fact, he tells us not to. He is the only judge, and only his opinion matters. I don't think anyone truly knows if homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. Even if the verse in Leviticus was accurate, who's to say that God's views don't change over time? The bible is not infallible. It was written by man. And even if it were infallible and the verse was true, we still do not have the right to judge others, which is also said in the bible. One bible verse cannot overwrite another.

My advice to you: Stay true to yourself. You are who you are, and I believe that God will accept that. He is the only judge, and other's opinions do not matter. Be happy with yourself, regardless of how others feel.





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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
True scotsman fallacy I see? lol
The no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't come into the equation - the assertion made is reasoned given the application of the verse in question, which renders the fallacy void. Careful with your use of logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
You guys should watch this, it's quite lengthy but funny/annoying nonetheless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSbfs32yCU
As MadPoet says, look at John 8:7 and then try and say the Westboro Baptist Church is acting in a Christian manner. I see very little of Christ in what they do.


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However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 04:15 PM

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Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
As MadPoet says, look at John 8:7 and then try and say the Westboro Baptist Church is acting in a Christian manner. I see very little of Christ in what they do.
I'm not saying they do. Please don't come to that conclusion. I've been against what they do since I first heard about them a few years ago


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 12th 2012, 05:31 PM

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Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
I'm not saying they do. Please don't come to that conclusion. I've been against what they do since I first heard about them a few years ago
Apologies - saw the bit about the no true Scotsman fallacy, saw the comment about WBC, put two and two together and in this case came up with six. My bad.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 13th 2012, 08:57 PM

Christians don't hate gays....Some in the Christian faith that acting on homosexual feelings is wrong.

If they say anymore than that then they are judging and sinning themselves. PLus the most 2 important commandments are about loving all.

As a gay Christian I believe God made me a lesbian so I can spread this message.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 14th 2012, 01:29 AM

I really don't want to make light of this situation, but every time I see the first 15 seconds of this video, I can't suppress a chuckle.

Here, however, is my take on it. First off, it is the height of stupidity to assume that all Christians can be "judged" by the same standards as the WBC. If you do your research, it's hard to believe that they buy their own spiel. They are a family of lawyers and attorneys- my gut says they do this for money. You pick the most sensitive subjects in American society, you heckle, and voila. Profit.

Anyway- the idea that all Christians hate gays. I'm not sure about hate, but I'm not sure I'd be mistaken in thinking that there are many Christians who disapprove of it. As stated above, a lot of it is the result of ignorance, and of fear of things different.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 14th 2012, 05:10 AM

Christianity, like many religions, is an "umbrella" term. An umbrella term is a label that is applied to a variety of different factions, sects, subgroups, philosophies, values, moral codes, and many other things that all have one thing in common. "Christianity" covers a lot of different beliefs and opinions between people within the same group.

Christians do not all hate gay people. Yes, some do. Some would like to see gay people exterminated. Those are the highly rare extremists, and unfortunately their radical beliefs gain them more publicity so that it becomes thought that their beliefs are the beliefs of most Christians.

Many are against homosexual lifestyles. Based on some of the passages quoted earlier in this thread, and a few others, the Bible is thought to state that homosexuality is a sin. However, here is the thing about the Bible: it was written over many years, by many people, in contexts we may not fully understand today. In addition, some take it literally, and some take it figuratively. Everyone has a different interpretation, which is actually what divides Christians on so many issues. But yes, many christians are conservative and consequently support conservative social beliefs. They view it as unnatural and morally wrong. They don't hate gays, but they think they are sinners.

Other Christians are much more open on the matter. They usually have a more figurative interpretation of the Bible. They have a different understanding of God and what he/she stands for and represents. Many of them not only feel neutral about gays, they embrace them and support their cause.

I do believe the world is going to eventually change and non-heterosexual individuals will be more openly accepted, as well as legislation will be passed to protect their rights and freedoms. But, as with civil rights for African Americans, it's not going to be an easy time. There will be lots of opposition and even if it is defeated there will be those that will not support gay rights and will try and take it down. You and I may not see it come to full prejudice-free fruition in our lifetimes, but it will one day.

In the mean time, remember not all Christians are hateful. There are many good Christian people that support you and your cause. As for the one's that don't, don't listen to them, and don't let them bring you down. Live your life according to your standards, not theirs.



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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 16th 2012, 03:21 PM

I don't understand how anyone can say that Christians don't hate gays (and I am talking about that specific statement that implys that all Christians don't hate gays). How can you deny them basic human rights, constantly say that they are sick and need to be fixed, call their lifestyle disgusting, deny them the right to adopt children, and many other things and not hate them. All of that seems awfully hateful to me.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 16th 2012, 08:50 PM

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Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
I don't understand how anyone can say that Christians don't hate gays (and I am talking about that specific statement that implys that all Christians don't hate gays). How can you deny them basic human rights, constantly say that they are sick and need to be fixed, call their lifestyle disgusting, deny them the right to adopt children, and many other things and not hate them. All of that seems awfully hateful to me.
No one is denying that there are Christians who hate gays - that is an empirically verifiable fact. What we are saying is that such people are sidestepping a pretty sizeable chunk of what Jesus (and, by extension, the Bible) actually preached and what the founders of Christianity advocated - as The Man and XX Master demonstrated in his post - to the extent that you can justifiably question how Christian they actually are. I say that not as an act of passing judgement - I am a long, long way from anything approaching perfection so am in no place to judge - but merely to demonstrate that there is an element of cognitive dissonance going on in such people.


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However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 16th 2012, 10:35 PM

But those people think that they are just as Christian as you think you are. Just because you interpret the Bible differently than them doesn't make them right and you wrong. Which is why I find any belief in the Bible absolutely ridiculous.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 17th 2012, 12:46 AM

Okay, I'll have to correct you on this because I think not a lot of Christians are hateful as you say. They rather don't accept the lifestyle, but still love the person as for them. I happen to know a lot of them who are like what I described them. It might be over there for you, but not all of us are like that.



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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 17th 2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanatic View Post
I'll have to correct you on this because I think not a lot of Christians are hateful as you say. They rather don't accept the lifestyle, but still love the person as for them.
Christian: "Hey BFF, I don't believe in nor support your attraction towards the same sex despite you accepting my attraction to the opposite sex!"

Christian's Gay Friend: "WTF?"

Excuse me? You cannot separate the gay "lifestyle" from a person and still claim to love that person.

Last edited by Henry Tyrell; February 17th 2012 at 03:07 AM. Reason: The more important your message, the more likely you are to fumble with the words
   
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 17th 2012, 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosana View Post
Christian: "Hey BFF, I don't believe in nor support your attraction towards the opposite sex despite you accepting my attraction to the same sex!"

Christian's Gay Friend: "WTF?"

Excuse me? You cannot separate the gay "lifestyle" from a person and still claim to love that person.
Yeah you can. How about your parents then? What if they said that to you, would it show that they don't love you? They would love you unconditionally like God loves us no matter what we are. Whether we are gay, straight, black, white, whatever. So don't be saying someone doesn't love you when they don't accept that part of you because it's not always true.



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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 17th 2012, 03:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanatic View Post

Yeah you can. How about your parents then? What if they said that to you, would it show that they don't love you? They would love you unconditionally like God loves us no matter what we are. Whether we are gay, straight, black, white, whatever. So don't be saying someone doesn't love you when they don't accept that part of you because it's not always true.
Oh course I would think that the parents don't really love their child. Those psycho parents that send their kids to those camps to "cure" their children of their gayness, they do not love their children. Parents need to accept their children for who they are and if they can't accept them being gay then they don't love them all as much as they may claim to. There can never be a loving relationship between a gay person and someone who does not accept homosexuality. Because if I were the gay person, I would automatically think less of anyone with that level of ignorance.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 17th 2012, 05:27 PM

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But those people think that they are just as Christian as you think you are. Just because you interpret the Bible differently than them doesn't make them right and you wrong. Which is why I find any belief in the Bible absolutely ridiculous.
What they (or for that matter, I) think about how Christian they are is frankly irrelevant - if they overlook a sizeable chunk of it and focus only on the parts that suit their preconceptions and lifestyles, then there is room for questioning the merits of their claim. That is all I actually said in my post, not that they are most definitely not Christian (if you read my post again, I said I was in no position to judge) You seem to be taking issue with the notion of questioning the claim at all, which I find very odd. If someone walked up to you claiming to be a doctor of medicine but didn't actually practise medicine and gave no indication of having any medical knowledge at all, you would have reasonable grounds for doubting them. Likewise, someone who claims to be Christian yet actively hates individuals or groups such as the LGBT community is failing on what Jesus called one of the two most important commandments - "You must love you neighbour as yourself." There isn't really much scope to "interpret" your way about that particular contradiction. Ergo, cognitive dissonance.


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However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 18th 2012, 12:28 AM

I'm a contradiction to all of this. I'm Christian (Baptist) and bisexual. I believe love is love no matter what. I believe most of what's in the bible, but some of it I just turn a deaf ear to. In church, I hear all the time how it's such a sin to be gay and that's what's wrong with the world and it makes me sick. My family and some other people tell me I'm going to hell.

I just ignore them, though, but I do understand how upsetting it is.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 18th 2012, 04:40 PM

"A lot"

What constitutes as a lot. Do you have some source. To me a lot means at least 30% of the population. And I know that far less than 30% of the Christians I know have ever shared anti-gay sentiments. Come to think of it, my great grandmother who's suffering from demensia is the only one.

Why do people go to war in the name of relgion? That contridicts a main Christian value.

Because they want an excuse to fight. Just as people who hate gays want and excuse to hate them. They hide behind the idea of God to somehow explain their innapropriate feelings towards homosexuals.


- Justin

Edit: Hell, just for fun let's all post our religion and if we believe homosexuality is "wrong" or "unnatural" just to see how many count as "a lot".

I'm Christian, Lutheran but I'm considering switching to Seventh Day Adventist. I have no problem with homosexuality.



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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 18th 2012, 04:46 PM

What I don't get is the way people quote the bible and assume it to be correct. Firstly, the bible was written a few THOUSAND years ago. Secondly, it's been translated a few times. And third, the new testament was written by three MEN who undoubtedly made some incredible decisions as to what THEY wanted to be in there. How do we know that after all the time, and all the translating, and etc., that it is still accurate? What if God's views have evolved over the years? What if what's written in there is the exact opposite of what was intended due to a mistake by someone that translated it? We don't know, honestly. And it's nothing personal against anyone, but I think that believing that everything in that text is accurate, is pretty flimsy. Try playing a game of telephone with 2 or three different languages and see what happens.

@Justin: Judging people and being mean to people violates a main Christian value! Religion is supposed to be about love and being kind to one-another, but when someone happens to be different, that value seems to disintegrate (at least for some people). As I've said before, I try to be tolerant and accepting of all people's beliefs and religions, so long as they too are accepting of others and do not use their own beliefs as a method for oppression of other people. Holding everyone to your religious beliefs as if they are the law of the land in a secular country isn't cool with me.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 18th 2012, 08:28 PM

Loving Linux Penguin: Did I not state that. Wars are fought for Christianity despite violation the fundamentals, gays are hated despite a violation of the fundamentals.

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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 18th 2012, 08:43 PM

@Justin: I suppose you did, although not outright, you were being a little more general...but point taken.

I'll play along. I have a belief system very much along the lines of Secular Humanism, and I do not believe that homosexuality is wrong.


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 19th 2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
Oh course I would think that the parents don't really love their child. Those psycho parents that send their kids to those camps to "cure" their children of their gayness, they do not love their children. Parents need to accept their children for who they are and if they can't accept them being gay then they don't love them all as much as they may claim to. There can never be a loving relationship between a gay person and someone who does not accept homosexuality. Because if I were the gay person, I would automatically think less of anyone with that level of ignorance.
It doesn't happen with all parents. I've been through this experience where my mom didn't accept it. It wouldn't mean my mom doesn't love me and it goes the same for other people. They may not accept that you're gay, but they're still family and they still love you. Same goes with friends. Well if they were teasing you yeah that wouldn't make them true friends, but people who are family or friends or whatever will have different opinions and sometimes you have to accept that they don't accept you. It's their decision on whether they accept you or not.



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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 19th 2012, 03:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Fanatic View Post

It doesn't happen with all parents. I've been through this experience where my mom didn't accept it. It wouldn't mean my mom doesn't love me and it goes the same for other people. They may not accept that you're gay, but they're still family and they still love you. Same goes with friends. Well if they were teasing you yeah that wouldn't make them true friends, but people who are family or friends or whatever will have different opinions and sometimes you have to accept that they don't accept you. It's their decision on whether they accept you or not.
I'm sorry but if someone is unable to accept you for who you are then they do not love you, and they are certainly not your friend. If I went up to one of my many Christian friends and said, hey I think you're totally cool and I love hanging out with you but I don't accept your Christianity, I just don't agree with it and I think it's wrong. They would never speak to me again, and they shouldn't.

On a slightly different vein here; I have a friend who is gay, he's 22 and he's never told his parents. Now he knows that they probably already know, and he says it's not that he's afraid that they wouldn't accept him, because he's sure they would, he just doesn't think it's necessary to tell them. After all the rest of us don't come out to our parents as heterosexual, why should he need to tell his parents he's gay. It's a mentality I never heard before but made perfect sense. I wish everyone would stop seeing being gay as this big thing. If heterosexuals don't go around announcing their sexuality why should gay people have to?


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Re: What I can't comprehend - February 19th 2012, 10:26 PM

If you talk to a group of young adult and teenage Christians I find that thoughts and beliefs are changing. This is in my area granted, but I find that through me being an openly preaching gay Christian and telling my side, my interpritation and then telling the people I am talking/preaching to to make up their own minds, evalute both sides and come to their own decision and not to allow themselves to just except everything their paster etc says generally gets people to think. Often coming to the conclusion that God doesn't condem loving commited relationships.

I am not saying this is happening in all parts of the world, but there is a gay Christian movement and views are starting to change for the better.

And all the Christians I have come across in the real world, if they don't agree with the acting on homosexual feelings, do still show love, compassion and do not judge me for believing differently.


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