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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Morality - February 18th 2012, 11:18 PM

Most of societ lives by the moral code set forth in the Bible. Now the belief that God created everything would lead one to believe that God himself created morality. I personally however have a different viewpoint on morals. If something is "morally right" I feel like that mean that it promotes happiness and wellbeing. Therefore something "moraly wrong" does not or it helps in the destruction of such things. Some would say that these definitions already match whats provided in the Bible. However according to the Bible homosexuality is "wrong". (just as an example) yet in what way does homosexuality not promote happiness and well being? If it makes someone happy to be with someone of their own sex why is that wrong?


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Re: Morality - February 18th 2012, 11:29 PM

I agree with this definition, but then again I'm not religious in the slightest.


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Re: Morality - February 18th 2012, 11:37 PM

Yeah, there's nothing more moral than killing people for working on the Sabbath /sarcasm. Guess we'll have to kill all those preachers....
   
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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 12:46 AM

our morality is not based on what is in the bible. If that were the case we'd be screwed. Morality doesn't come from god imo and they never should.

"omg look at the 10 commandments ... can't you see that it defines our laws and morals?!"

No. They're like 3 or 4 relevant commandments. that's far from enough to classify our whole moral system to be defined on them.

Anyway, I think that morality is evolutionary to some extent. It's beneficial to us to help others and look out for others. Bigger decisions are based on our emotions, rationality and reasoning. Most people whole claim morality is based on god don't realise that they actually say what's good first and if it links with their text then they'll say god told them. If it doesn't they'll find a weird interpretation or just cut it out completely. It's something that should be embraced rather than seen as horrid.

Also unqualified obedience to any 'moral' law makes you non moral. You've chosen to reject your own freedom to please a book or deity.

Anyway I probably went off on a tangent, hopefully I was clear.

ps the 'golden rule' of love your neighbour as yourself has been in nearly every religion ever. So don't try and take credit for that either.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 03:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige View Post
I personally however have a different viewpoint on morals. If something is "morally right" I feel like that mean that it promotes happiness and wellbeing. Therefore something "moraly wrong" does not or it helps in the destruction of such things. Some would say that these definitions already match whats provided in the Bible. However according to the Bible homosexuality is "wrong". (just as an example) yet in what way does homosexuality not promote happiness and well being? If it makes someone happy to be with someone of their own sex why is that wrong?
Why do you have to make it so simple and complicated at the same time?


"Moral" is simply whatever society says is right. It does not have to promote happiness or well-being; it can be hurtful (such as slavery, killing, dueling, etc.). If society agrees that men and women are equal, then we're equal; if society agrees that it's totally okay to burn "witches" on stake, then that's the moral thing to do.

For a quality or belief to be "moral," it only has to be agreed by the general populace. That's it!


Moral changes over time. Slavery used to be okay; racism and sexism used to be okay. Now they're not; we're at 2012. With the rise of the new generation, soon our moral would be that homosexuality is totally okay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige View Post
Most of societ lives by the moral code set forth in the Bible. Now the belief that God created everything would lead one to believe that God himself created morality.
And please, no, Christian isn't only the only religion on Earth and certainly many people aren't religious. I certainly am not living by whatever "code" set forth in the Bible. Heck, I've never even open a Bible, never mind about reading one. Besides, I was raised in a Buddhism family (I'm Asian). For me, if I ever have to question my belief, it wouldn't be whether the Christian God exist or not, it would be whether the divine beings of Buddhism exist or not.



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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 03:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige View Post
Most of societ lives by the moral code set forth in the Bible.
This is true of certain geographical areas but it is not true of societies in general. For those that do strongly abide by the bible, you must remember the interpretations vary across time, so there is no constant moral code that is recognized all the time.

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Now the belief that God created everything would lead one to believe that God himself created morality. I personally however have a different viewpoint on morals.
Why is morality an exception to the view god created everything? Are there any other exceptions?

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Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige View Post
If something is "morally right" I feel like that mean that it promotes happiness and wellbeing. Therefore something "moraly wrong" does not or it helps in the destruction of such things. Some would say that these definitions already match whats provided in the Bible. However according to the Bible homosexuality is "wrong". (just as an example) yet in what way does homosexuality not promote happiness and well being? If it makes someone happy to be with someone of their own sex why is that wrong?
You're over-simplifying to the point where your application of biblical context is incorrect for the very reason you ignore changes in views across time. It seems your premise is morality does not change across time, so you're shooting yourself in the foot. Homosexuality promotes happiness and well-being to those who either embrace it or are more tolerant, however, those who are less tolerant or feel it is a societal plague would view it as not promoting happiness. Hence, the problem with your view of morality is different people have different views of what constitutes happiness, it is entirely subjective. I find this problematic because using terms such as "morally right" and "morally wrong" implies objectivity.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 04:37 AM

[quote=The Man And XX Master;817766]This is true of certain geographical areas but it is not true of societies in general. For those that do strongly abide by the bible, you must remember the interpretations vary across time, so there is no constant moral code that is recognized all the time.

I apologize for not thinking globally. I was refering to the United States and it may have been too much of a generalization. There is no constant moral code thats recognized, that doesn't mean there aren't constantly morals.


Why is morality an exception to the view god created everything? Are there any other exceptions?

God forbid Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowlage so they would not know right from wrong. Which means there was right from wrong before the garden or tree itself was even "created." I'm not sure about any other exeptions but I'm sure there are.

And as far as homosexuality being viewed differently by different people, the viewpoint doesn't change the state of morality. Just because something is viewed as right doesn't make it so and visa versa.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 04:56 AM

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God forbid Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowlage so they would not know right from wrong. Which means there was right from wrong before the garden or tree itself was even "created."
This supports the view god created morality but you stated you believed otherwise, which begs the question, why do you believe otherwise?

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And as far as homosexuality being viewed differently by different people, the viewpoint doesn't change the state of morality. Just because something is viewed as right doesn't make it so and visa versa.
Morality is subjective, hence it is dependent on the viewpoint of people because morality is defined by societal agreement.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 06:19 AM

Morality is subjective. It's a combination of societal values, nothing more.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 04:03 PM

It supports the fact that morality existed before God created everything else.

And I don't believe its subjective you can chose to view something however you want that doesn't make it true. I can convince myself a computer mouse is a rock and no matter how deeply and truely i believe that or how I view it that computer mouse is not can not and will never be a rock. Things are black and white either its right or its wrong regardless of how its viewed.


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Re: Morality - February 19th 2012, 05:07 PM

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It supports the fact that morality existed before God created everything else.

And I don't believe its subjective you can chose to view something however you want that doesn't make it true. I can convince myself a computer mouse is a rock and no matter how deeply and truely i believe that or how I view it that computer mouse is not can not and will never be a rock. Things are black and white either its right or its wrong regardless of how its viewed.
there's a difference between objective truth and objective morality.


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Re: Morality - February 20th 2012, 04:24 PM

How? what is the difference. So if I kill someone for the sake of saving myself or saving someone else does that makin taking the life of someone else and less wrong? Even if its viewed in a positive light or done for the right reason that doesn't make it morally right


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Re: Morality - February 20th 2012, 05:26 PM

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How? what is the difference. So if I kill someone for the sake of saving myself or saving someone else does that makin taking the life of someone else and less wrong? Even if its viewed in a positive light or done for the right reason that doesn't make it morally right
I'm not a philosophy student so I may not know much about what's objective and subjective or what's morally right and morally wrong.


However, you're grouping together everyone who had hurt an attacker for the sake of self-defense or protecting their love ones . . . with every death-role criminal and psychopath who had hurt others just for the fun of it. You're grouping every man and woman who had injured or killed their assailant for self-defense . . . with every trash of society who had raped or killed innocent people for their own enjoyment.

That, I disagree and dislike. That, I have a problem with.

====================================

There's nothing wrong--both morally and lawfully--about killing an attacker who might harm us or our family.

For example, if a woman managed to kill her to-be rapist while trying to free herself from him, then chances are on the court and on the media, we would see people complementing her, praising her--something like "You go, girl!" or "He totally deserved it." Hardly anyone would curse her and call her a murderer.

====================================

Not everyone is trained to the point of being capable of restraining or disabling an attacker without harming him/her. Sometimes just point a gun and shoot is our best option. If it is wrong to protect ourselves and our love ones, then it is ultimately and terribly wrong to just sit there and watch that attacker brings harm to our family.

Killing for self-defense is not the same as murdering.




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Re: Morality - February 20th 2012, 05:34 PM

Well, here's my take. For most Abrahamic faiths, God is the highest standard of "goodness." So when you try to be good, you are trying to be the most god-like you can. It's also redundant, therefore to say that God is good- because all you are saying is that God is the most God-like entity imaginable.
Enter the Euthyphro Dilemma:
Is something morally good because God loves it?
Or does God love it because it is morally good?

If the latter, than God is nothing more than a messenger, a harbinger of some supreme morality. If the former, then there is no distinction between right and wrong or good or evil. Simply whatever it is that God wills, which in and of itself is a scary proposition. Absolute morality is a detrimental thing.


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Re: Morality - February 21st 2012, 01:41 AM

Regardless of how the law or society or the media feels about something, is the life of a rapist truely valued lower than that of a child? A life is a life and regardless of the choices of that person they're life should be eaqually valued hence taking the life ANYONE is wrong.


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Re: Morality - February 21st 2012, 04:09 AM

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Regardless of how the law or society or the media feels about something, is the life of a rapist truely valued lower than that of a child? A life is a life and regardless of the choices of that person they're life should be eaqually valued
Yes, the value of the life of a rapist is infinitely lower than that of a child.


The moment the rapist chooses to assault the child, the child's life is prioritize!

The child would prioritize freeing himself/herself from the rapist. The police officers would prioritize saving child; the good samaritans who witness the scene would prioritize saving the child. The child's family--mother, father, siblings, relatives, etc.--would prioritize saving the life of the child; heck, even the rapist's own family would probably prioritize saving the life of the child--the victim.


And yet here you are, sitting in the comfort of your room, ignorantly arguing that the lives of the rapist and the child are equal. I . . . don't even know what to make out of your action, you know; I really don't.


============================
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Let me tell you a story, a true story. Perhaps this might paint a clear enough picture for you to understand what (not even who, "what") you're trying to defend.
WARNING: TRIGGERING materials in spoilers. Please click ONLY and ONLY IF you sure you're NOT easily triggered.

Note: Mods, please don't remove the contents in the spoiler. It's necessary for the OP to understand what she's trying to defend. Thanks!
Spoiler:
One day, a girl who had not yet reach school-age was being rush to the ER (emergency room). Feces (excrement, stool, poops, whatever words you prefer) were leaking from her vagina. This was due to severe tearing of the tissues between the vagina and the anus.

That little girl--not yet reached school age--was raped.


What even more heartbreaking was that she was no longer crying in tears . . . for all of her tears had dried up. Her crying voice--weak, desperate, hurt, and broken--was rather quiet, but it expressed loudly how much she had suffered.

A hospital has strict policy to keep patients' information private so we most likely won't ever know the outcome of this girl. However, that image of her suffering, that image of an innocent kid whose life had been destroyed by a trash of society . . . forever left unhealable scars on the hearts of those who witnessed it.


Do you know what it was like? Can you imagine how much pain and suffering that little girl went through? Can you imagine what it was like to desperately call out for help in vain? Can you imagine what kind of terror and scar this would imprint in her mind for the rest of her life?

At a tender age, she had already experienced overwhelming fear, hurt, and helplessness--all because of a rapist that you're trying so hard to defend. She was forced to experience what it was like to be desperate, to call for help in vain--all because of a rapist that you're trying so hard to defend.



After reading that, do you understand now what you're trying so hard to defend? You want to sympathize with their kind? What about the victims--the victims whose body, mind, and heart was crushed by the likes of them? Morality? Is this what you call "moral"?

How, I honestly ask, can you even set a the likes of them on the same level as an innocent victim? This is insulting; this is blatant insult to the victims, to their family, to everyone who had stood up to protect themselves or their love ones.




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Re: Morality - February 21st 2012, 04:24 AM

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Regardless of how the law or society or the media feels about something, is the life of a rapist truely valued lower than that of a child? A life is a life and regardless of the choices of that person they're life should be eaqually valued hence taking the life ANYONE is wrong.
You can't possibly state that as an absolute truth, because that would require absolute evidence.
And goo for you if that's what YOU believe, but I can assure you, there are many, many different doctrines, collectives and individuals that would disagree.
What makes you so confident that you're right?


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Re: Morality - February 21st 2012, 12:55 PM

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Well, here's my take. For most Abrahamic faiths, God is the highest standard of "goodness." So when you try to be good, you are trying to be the most god-like you can. It's also redundant, therefore to say that God is good- because all you are saying is that God is the most God-like entity imaginable.
Enter the Euthyphro Dilemma:
Is something morally good because God loves it?
Or does God love it because it is morally good?

If the latter, than God is nothing more than a messenger, a harbinger of some supreme morality. If the former, then there is no distinction between right and wrong or good or evil. Simply whatever it is that God wills, which in and of itself is a scary proposition. Absolute morality is a detrimental thing.
Kierkegaard devoted an entire work to this.


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Re: Morality - February 22nd 2012, 02:25 AM

I'm not confident I'm right about anything. Its a forum you supposed to post what you believe and how you feel thats simply what i did. If you or anyone else disagrees i'd love to hear more feedback. An opinion can always be swayed and I learn new things everyday=)


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Re: Morality - February 22nd 2012, 02:31 AM

The first sentence of the first post just made me wonder how socities lived morally before the Bible. Surely it wasn't just chaos?




   
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Re: Morality - February 22nd 2012, 09:22 PM

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The first sentence of the first post just made me wonder how socities lived morally before the Bible. Surely it wasn't just chaos?
I think you're missing what the OP said. If G-D created morals, surely man would know those morals, even without the Bible. Which, ironically, is what the Bible teaches. Whether that is true, or an accurate interpretation of Jeremiah 31:33 is of course arguable.

But for argument sake, even Christians seemed to do fine before the New Testament was written. So, no one is saying the Bible is a necessity to determine morality, but that G-D made morals. I knew murder, adultery, etc. were bad before I was ever told they were bad.


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Re: Morality - February 22nd 2012, 10:31 PM

I'm definatly not convinced that God created morality. Just because you know something is wrong before you were told so doesn't support that God made it wrong.


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Re: Morality - February 23rd 2012, 11:13 AM

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I'm definatly not convinced that God created morality. Just because you know something is wrong before you were told so doesn't support that God made it wrong.
I didn't say that. I was saying I knew right from wrong without reading the Bible. Which the Bible says we know right from wrong, without the Bible. Which is why I didnt understand why the person I quoted said what they said.

I also didn't say you believed anything. I just included something you mentioned.


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