TeenHelp
Support Forums Today's Posts

Get Advice Connect with TeenHelp Resources
HelpLINK Facebook     Twitter     Tumblr     Instagram    Hotlines    Safety Zone    Alternatives

You are not registered or have not logged in

Hello guest! (Not a guest? Log in above!)

As a guest on TeenHelp you are only able to use some of our site's features. By registering an account you will be able to enjoy unlimited access to our site, and will be able to:

  • Connect with thousands of teenagers worldwide by actively taking part in our Support Forums and Chat Room.
  • Find others with similar interests in our Social Groups.
  • Express yourself through our Blogs, Picture Albums and User Profiles.
  • And much much more!

Signing up is free, anonymous and will only take a few moments, so click here to register now!


Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 01:24 AM

Hello everybody.

I would like to challenge the traditionalists (Protestant) view of Hell: Eternal Conscious Torment. I wish to do this, not to debate, but to learn. As it is, I do not find any doctrine, Bible passage -- either literal, or figurative, that says the damned will suffer with eternal conscious torment.

I find this doctrine is rooted, as the name may make it kind of cliche, in tradition, not scripture. I wish to hear people share Bible passages, logic, philosophies, etc. to hold their ECT view. I will then, in return, rebut their response. Not out of hate, or because I feel intelligent, but to learn. I find that when I rebut others, it forces me to question my beliefs. I wish to do this.

I would go to another forum, but as it is, those older folk who are more traditional, do not wish to discuss such a topic. All I get is, "Unless you believe in eternal conscious torment, you're not a Christians, it's biblical." But, I don't find it biblical at all. In fact, I find it utterly unbiblical.

So please, share away, and please, keep it friendly.

And to define ECT, I will define it as such:
That the wicked will suffer under G-D's eternal judgment through conscious, physical, psychological torments. Included but not limited to: Weeping and gnashing of teeth, fire, endless pit, darkness, and other such things. All of which are unending and will never receive G-D's mercy in any way, shape, or form. And that such people will suffer with the knowledge that they will never escape this wrath.

To those who wish to refrain from debating publicly, PM me.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 04:57 PM

The one thing that comes to my mind instantly is Luke 16:19-31. It talks about one man in "Hades" who was in torment and begging the people in Abraham's Bosom for help. The man in Hades wasn't just destroyed and then his torment was over with. It says that he was suffering and having conversations about his agony, and that there was even a chasm made between Hades and Abraham's Bosom so that people who were in Hades couldn't cross over and get into Abraham's Bosom....so they were clearly not just going to be quickly destroyed and then gone forever. They were in extreme torment and trying to get out.

I'll look for more, but that's the one I thought of off the top of my head.
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
The one thing that comes to my mind instantly is Luke 16:19-31. It talks about one man in "Hades" who was in torment and begging the people in Abraham's Bosom for help. The man in Hades wasn't just destroyed and then his torment was over with. It says that he was suffering and having conversations about his agony, and that there was even a chasm made between Hades and Abraham's Bosom so that people who were in Hades couldn't cross over and get into Abraham's Bosom....so they were clearly not just going to be quickly destroyed and then gone forever. They were in extreme torment and trying to get out.

I'll look for more, but that's the one I thought of off the top of my head.
This is a parable condemning the Jews, telling them that they have been cut off from the inheritance and the Gentiles grafted in. I'll supply a link later, I'm at work. Also, the parable speaks nothing of an eternal suffering, but temporary pains, even if we were to take it literal. Which, is my view. I believe each person will be judged according to what they've done, and based on that is the amount of suffering that will be given until they are destroyed.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 05:34 PM

A long but informative explanation of that particular parable:
http://www.herealittletherealittle.n...e_name=Lazarus

I would explain it myself, but this person obliterated the misconception of taking this parable literally. It's well worth the read.

My biggest problem with people who take it literal, is they only believe certain parts of it. I.e. if you took it literal, then you'd have to believe that all rich people go to Gehenna, while the poor go to Abraham's Bosom. Yet, no Christian, at least in America, would dare say that.

It is also a clear prophecy of the resurrection. But people seem to ignore that and twist it to their own liking.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
SouthernBelle. Offline
InsaneAnnie
I've been here a while
********
 
SouthernBelle.'s Avatar
 
Name: Anna
Gender: Female
Location: West Virginia, US

Posts: 1,056
Blog Entries: 5
Join Date: November 30th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 05:39 PM

I think that it depends on whether the person at fault knew they were doing something against God's will, whether or not they suffer eternal agony and torment; because of Luke 12:41-48. There quite much there to type, but the most important two verses, I think, are these:

Quote:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. /But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of strips, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
[Luke 12:47-48]


Anna's Personal Keys to Happiness
1. Do what you want within the bounds of reason, whenever you want to, and regret nothing. 2. If you have an opinion, don't beat around the bush, or there isn't a point in saying it. 3. Don't keep the company of anyone who won't like you and will try to change you.



   
  (#6 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 07:06 PM

I knew that it was a parable, but I don't think Jesus would talk about hell (even in a parable) in a way that wasn't accurate to how it really is. And the parable doesn't say whether their suffering was temporary or eternal...but it does show that it lasted at least some time in order for him to get to have that conversation and beg for water and such.

And I don't think it says that he went to hell for being rich...just that he was rich and went to hell.

But I'm not here to debate. I answered your question with the only verse I knew off the top of my head, and I'll come back if I think of any more.
   
  (#7 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldora View Post
I think that it depends on whether the person at fault knew they were doing something against God's will, whether or not they suffer eternal agony and torment; because of Luke 12:41-48. There quite much there to type, but the most important two verses, I think, are these:


"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. /But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of strips, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

[Luke 12:47-48]
What exactly is your view of ECT?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I knew that it was a parable, but I don't think Jesus would talk about hell (even in a parable) in a way that wasn't accurate to how it really is. And the parable doesn't say whether their suffering was temporary or eternal...but it does show that it lasted at least some time in order for him to get to have that conversation and beg for water and such.

And I don't think it says that he went to hell for being rich...just that he was rich and went to hell.

But I'm not here to debate. I answered your question with the only verse I knew off the top of my head, and I'll come back if I think of any more.
I would like to say before responding, I am not angered by your response, and I do not want to sound demeaning, but I am going to respond to this as straight forward as possible. Please know, I do not mean to come off in a demeaning attitude.

The parable you provided is rather irrelevant to my topic. First of all, the parable is not even talking about Hell. It is talking about Gehenna, which is completely separate from the traditionalist's Hell. Parables are never to be taken literally, even when Christ uses them. Christ is described as a sheep, and a lamb. Yet, when we picture Christ, we don't imagine a sheep walking around, talking, nor do we imagine a sheep crucified. It is figurative.

But, even if we were to take Gehenna, and interpret Gehenna as Hell, you said yourself, it does not say it is an eternal suffering. Which is precisely my point. I do believe people suffer. But it is based on degrees of sin. Which, there are degrees of sin. Not all sin is equal in measure. The Apostle Paul speaks plenty of people reaping what they sow, and in Peter even says that some people are worse off than others when it comes to judgment.

Thus, this passage, even if taken literally, it does not speak of an eternal torment. The passage then can be discarded as it is irrelevant. In fact, the passage isn't even speaking of Hell at all. Neither literally or figuratively.

As far as the reason they are suffering, the parable says directly that one is suffering because he is rich and the other is comforted because he was poor. However, if you read anything from the link I posted, you'd see that Christ meant their wealth status in a figurative and spiritual sense. Which, if taken literally, would make sense because Christ said (in Matthew, I believe) the poor are blessed for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, if we take everything Christ said literally, the poor are all going to Heaven. Yet, in Luke, I believe it reads blessed are the poor in spirit, which would be a reference to the gentiles, which could then be a cross reference to this verse.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan

Last edited by ThisWillDestroyYou; April 11th 2012 at 10:55 PM.
   
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 11th 2012, 11:22 PM

Well to answer your original question then, as far as I know, the bible never says whether they will suffer for eternity or if they will only suffer shortly and then be destroyed. Either way is speculation I guess. Either way, they aren't ever going to Heaven. I guess that's all that really matters is that there are people who need to be saved from hell- reguardless of if hell is eternal conscious suffering or being quickly destroyed. I understand that hell wasn't the point of that parable, but the parable does mention a place after death of conscious suffering (reguardless of what it's called). I don't see why Jesus would have made that up just for the parable. I understand why He would use symbolic things like sheep and everything, but I don't see why He would make up a place where people go when they die if they aren't really going to go there. So for that reason, I do believe that hell is a place of conscious suffering. And we know that those people never get to Heaven, which is why I just assume that they suffer forever. Is it possible that they just quickly suffer and then are destroyed? I guess it's possible, but that's complete speculation and not in the bible as far as I know.

And I do agree that there are different degrees of hell, but I think that all degrees of hell involve eternal suffering...just different degress of it. For example, having a paper cut forever is a lot less painful than your whole body being on fire forever. Both are eternal suffering, but different degrees of it. And no, I'm not suggesting that someone's punishment in hell can literally be as simple as a paper cut it's just an analogy.

Oh, and I think you also asked where the "gnashing of teeth" thing comes from and if it is biblical. I think it comes from Matthew 13:42. It says that they will go to a place where there will be "weaping and gnashing of teeth". That is from a parable too, but the parable describes the people as wheat...and since wheat doesn't cry or have teeth, I would say that the weeping and gnashing of teeth probably isn't part of the symbolic part.

Umm....yep that's all I know, so take that how you will. That's the best way I could answer your question. So test that against scripture to make sure I'm right and I'll let you know if I find anything else.

Last edited by Megan1; April 11th 2012 at 11:29 PM.
   
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 01:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Well to answer your original question then, as far as I know, the bible never says whether they will suffer for eternity or if they will only suffer shortly and then be destroyed.
I disagree. The Bible speaks plainly that the wicked will be destroyed. It never once teaches that their suffering will go on for eternity. The OT never once mentions any type of eternal suffering. In fact, it just mentions death as an end.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

2 Thessalonians 2:10
He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

1 Corinthians 1:18
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Philippians 3:18-19
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

The list is nearly endless. I will save you the time. But, when discussing the fate of anyone who isn't saved, it is said they will perish, be destroyed, be killed, experience death etc. It never says they will be tormented forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I guess that's all that really matters
Because, this isn't just about people. It is a question as to the attributes of G-D. Would He relentlessly torture His enemies forever, when Christ taught us to forgive everyone? Maybe He would. But, it seems kind of hypocritical of G-D. Though, it is not my place to judge Him. If He does torture His enemies forever, then my logic and understanding is flawed, not His justice and love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I don't see why Jesus would have made that up just for the parable. I understand why He would use symbolic things like sheep and everything, but I don't see why He would make up a place where people go when they die if they aren't really going to go there.
He does this many times in His parables. And it isn't a "made up place," it's a spiritual reality for the Jews being separated from the promises they once had. Go to the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
So for that reason, I do believe that hell is a place of conscious suffering.
There is no dissent here. The call into question is why it is taught that this suffering is eternal, when their is no basis or merit for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
And we know that those people never get to Heaven, which is why I just assume that they suffer forever.
Being destroyed is an eternal punishment. So, in a sense, yes, they suffer forever, but not necessarily consciously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Oh, and I think you also asked where the "gnashing of teeth" thing comes from and if it is biblical. I think it comes from Matthew 13:42.
I didn't. I was just saying many people say that in their description of Hell. I was kind of on a muse.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#10 (permalink)) Old
SouthernBelle. Offline
InsaneAnnie
I've been here a while
********
 
SouthernBelle.'s Avatar
 
Name: Anna
Gender: Female
Location: West Virginia, US

Posts: 1,056
Blog Entries: 5
Join Date: November 30th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 03:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
What exactly is your view of ECT?
Just what I said: That it depends on whether the person knowingly sinned and what sins they committed, whether they suffer "Eternal" Conscious Torment, a softer or shorter punishment, or have no punishment at all. I believe that ECT exists, but only for those who truly deserve it. I don't think God would be unjust toward even a sinner; I think He would be a wise and worthy judge of the race He created, and therefore, He wouldn't damn someone to ECT unless they were truly horrible and devoid of all human qualities. Hell exists, but God controls the judgements that He passes on them; ECT is possible, but not common.

In the end, it's all up to God, not men. There are many different opinions on God's word. For all I know, I could be dead wrong and someone who as much as stole a piece of candy from a gas station as a child could be damned to ECT. And there's nothing I could do to change that, if it's true.


Anna's Personal Keys to Happiness
1. Do what you want within the bounds of reason, whenever you want to, and regret nothing. 2. If you have an opinion, don't beat around the bush, or there isn't a point in saying it. 3. Don't keep the company of anyone who won't like you and will try to change you.



   
  (#11 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 04:38 AM

What sins deserve ECT?


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#12 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 11:08 AM

ECT is the epitome of evil and it's fucking disguisting. No one one this earth or the next will ever ever deserve it. If any god even thinks about sending anyone there then there's no way I could call him good. Anyone who thinks of promoting it as a way to scare children into being good doesn't deserve to be within 3 light years of children.

eternal suffering = god logic = douchebag of the highest degree

using premise 1 we get

eternal suffering = douchebag of the highest degree

Even though I don't agree with the whole reward + punishment thing after death thanks for trying to combat this horrid way of thinking.


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#13 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 12:28 PM

I don't understand the logic behind it. To be honest, G-D could do whatever He wants in my opinion. But, I don't find ECT anywhere in the Bible, and I don't find it consistent with His character, nor do I find it Christ-like, who taught us to forgive everyone.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#14 (permalink)) Old
SouthernBelle. Offline
InsaneAnnie
I've been here a while
********
 
SouthernBelle.'s Avatar
 
Name: Anna
Gender: Female
Location: West Virginia, US

Posts: 1,056
Blog Entries: 5
Join Date: November 30th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
What sins deserve ECT?
That, I don't profess to know. Only God knows the true depths of men's and women's hearts, and only he can judge the severity of their sins.


Anna's Personal Keys to Happiness
1. Do what you want within the bounds of reason, whenever you want to, and regret nothing. 2. If you have an opinion, don't beat around the bush, or there isn't a point in saying it. 3. Don't keep the company of anyone who won't like you and will try to change you.



   
  (#15 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
I disagree. The Bible speaks plainly that the wicked will be destroyed. It never once teaches that their suffering will go on for eternity. The OT never once mentions any type of eternal suffering. In fact, it just mentions death as an end.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

2 Thessalonians 2:10
He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

1 Corinthians 1:18
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Philippians 3:18-19
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

The list is nearly endless. I will save you the time. But, when discussing the fate of anyone who isn't saved, it is said they will perish, be destroyed, be killed, experience death etc. It never says they will be tormented forever.



Because, this isn't just about people. It is a question as to the attributes of G-D. Would He relentlessly torture His enemies forever, when Christ taught us to forgive everyone? Maybe He would. But, it seems kind of hypocritical of G-D. Though, it is not my place to judge Him. If He does torture His enemies forever, then my logic and understanding is flawed, not His justice and love.



He does this many times in His parables. And it isn't a "made up place," it's a spiritual reality for the Jews being separated from the promises they once had. Go to the link.



There is no dissent here. The call into question is why it is taught that this suffering is eternal, when their is no basis or merit for it.



Being destroyed is an eternal punishment. So, in a sense, yes, they suffer forever, but not necessarily consciously.



I didn't. I was just saying many people say that in their description of Hell. I was kind of on a muse.
Yeah, all I know is that there is conscious suffering in hell and that people remain in hell forever. Whether the conscious suffering lasts forever or whether they just suffer and then are destroyed, I don't know (or really care, honestly). I always took "destroyed" in those verses to just mean "thrown into hell"- because that is destructive and awful. I never took it to mean that they are "destroyed" to the point of not even consciously suffering any more. I kind of find that far-fetched, but it is possible.

Either way, I know that God is just, that He does punish sin with hell, and that we have to be saved to avoid hell (reguardless of the details about what happens in hell). That's all that really matters to me...but you do have me curious to learn more about hell now.

Last edited by Megan1; April 12th 2012 at 04:16 PM.
   
  (#16 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 05:11 PM

How do you know they are in Hell forever? And how is it far fetched to take destruction to mean destruction, or death as death? Something can be destructive and yet not destroy anything. Saying you will be destroyed is different than saying you will be alive and tormented forever, never being destroyed, never seeing death. Yet, the Bible says the wicked will have the blackest darkness which sounds more like destruction than in a pit of fire which would be.bright from the flame. The last I read the Bible, only the righteous will live forever. The logic of ECT is so flawed. No where else would destroyed mean anything but destroyed, save for traditions. You read your bible that way because you were indoctrinated. Just like the Catholic church for many years until they reformed.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#17 (permalink)) Old
Zen Ryochan Offline
Love and Tolerate
Average Joe
***
 
Zen Ryochan's Avatar
 
Name: Ryan
Gender: Other

Posts: 113
Join Date: January 1st 2012

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 12th 2012, 10:08 PM

I believe ect actually comes more from the greek idea of hades and mixing in some torment to make it scary.

However the idea of being completely destroyed appeals to me more than heaven. So for those who think the difference doesnt matter whether a nonchristian gets ect or oblivion think of this.
. Oblivion is more like my nirvana. No existance and no rebirth, its a Buddhists path. So Id rather go to hell if it meant no more anything.


"To suspect your own mortality is to know the beginning of terror; to learn irrefutably that you are mortal is to know the end of terror." -Frank Herbert

“To love our enemy is impossible. The moment we understand our enemy, we feel compassion towards him or her, and he or she is no longer our enemy.” ~Thich Nhat Hanh
   
  (#18 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 12:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Ryochan View Post
I believe ect actually comes more from the greek idea of hades and mixing in some torment to make it scary.
I agree with this. The idea that the soul is eternal came from Greek mythology. A lot of early Christians, even ones that Protestants regard as "saved," believed that many Greek Philosophers were actually Christian. They believe that G-D used them to preach the Gospel through their philosophy, Plato/Socrates namely. I definitely see themes of the Gospel in their philosophy, and I wouldn't rule it out from them being Christian, that's for G-D to judge, but it's funny how many Christian's are ignorant to the fact that many doctrines they believe in come from Pagan ideas.

It's funny, kind of, to think that if we had no influence from the early Church or tradition, we would probably all believe that Hell is the annihilation of the soul. I just don't see Christian's sitting in Heaven rejoicing over those being eternally tormented in Hell. It seems to me that anyone with a conscience would realize this. Even logic. Christ says to forgive and love your enemies. Then, in the end, Christ will send them to Hell to burn forever? Not just a minute, not an hour, not a year, not 100 years, not 1 thousand years, not 1 million years, but forever. Weird.

I mean, I believe He can do whatever He wants. I believe if He sent me to Hell for eternity to be tortured forever and ever, that I deserve that. But, I don't really think that exhibits the character, attributes, or qualities of G-D.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#19 (permalink)) Old
Zen Ryochan Offline
Love and Tolerate
Average Joe
***
 
Zen Ryochan's Avatar
 
Name: Ryan
Gender: Other

Posts: 113
Join Date: January 1st 2012

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 12:29 AM

The story of the fall of satan is another pagan turned christian tradition.

And i cant see how heaven could be perfect knowing people are in hell because you didnt help them or couldnt help them.


"To suspect your own mortality is to know the beginning of terror; to learn irrefutably that you are mortal is to know the end of terror." -Frank Herbert

“To love our enemy is impossible. The moment we understand our enemy, we feel compassion towards him or her, and he or she is no longer our enemy.” ~Thich Nhat Hanh
   
  (#20 (permalink)) Old
Heathen Offline
Beauty and Bedlam
Jeez, get a life!
***********
 
Heathen's Avatar
 
Name: Jordan
Age: 29
Gender: Female

Posts: 5,326
Blog Entries: 535
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 01:54 AM

Here's my take on it:

The Bible was written thousands of years ago, by many different men, and pieced into one Book. That Book was then, centuries later, printed into thousands upon thousands of copies and translated into hundreds of different languages.

I'm not saying it's not the word of God, because I believe it is. But I am saying there is probably a LOT that has been lost in translation.

Even more importantly, though, is that when the original disciples WROTE the Bible, they were writing it in a way that people could understand. People didn't have higher education, or any education, really, back then. There was no "literature." There weren't abstract concepts, conjugations, connotations, denotations, metaphors...these were simple people who needed simple words. Simple images. And so that's how it was written.

I do not believe the Bible is taken literally. I believe it's very figurative.

Ergo, I think the torment expressed in the Bible, fire and darkness and suffering, are metaphors. They are things meant for people to UNDERSTAND a depth of pain. People didn't understand troubles of the mind. But they did understand that fire was painful, and darkness was scary. It's not a literal image, it's metaphorical.

I personally don't believe there are lakes of fire. This is because God did not make us to be physical beings.

He made our souls to commune with Him, to join with Him. Not our human forms. And when we deny that connection, it's our souls that will suffer, not our physical bodies.

So no, I don't think it's a physical fire that will torment us. I think it's a spiritual one.



The moon asked the crow
For a little show
In the hazy milk of twilight
No one had to know
The moon asked the crow...
  Send a message via Yahoo to Heathen  
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#21 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 02:19 AM

The fall of satan is recorded in the bible, either. They take a chapter out of context.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#22 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 02:21 AM

What do you mean by a spiritual pain?


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#23 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 02:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
How do you know they are in Hell forever? And how is it far fetched to take destruction to mean destruction, or death as death? Something can be destructive and yet not destroy anything. Saying you will be destroyed is different than saying you will be alive and tormented forever, never being destroyed, never seeing death. Yet, the Bible says the wicked will have the blackest darkness which sounds more like destruction than in a pit of fire which would be.bright from the flame. The last I read the Bible, only the righteous will live forever. The logic of ECT is so flawed. No where else would destroyed mean anything but destroyed, save for traditions. You read your bible that way because you were indoctrinated. Just like the Catholic church for many years until they reformed.
Oh, by "hell forever", I just meant that they are never saved and never get out. I didn't mean to say for sure that they are suffering there forever. That is what I think, but that's not what I was trying to say there. And I don't think that "destroyed" is symbolic either, I think it's literal....but if you are suffering in a lake of fire forever, you pretty much are destroyed, even if you are conscious and suffering. Like if someone says "I destroyed my car", that doesn't mean that the car is completely gone or that you can't hurt it any more...it just means that it's really messed up. That's how I see it when the bible says that people will be destroyed. Hell really messes you up, it destroys you, but that doesn't mean you're completely gone. You could be right, but that's how I take it. I don't know for sure.


Oh, and I found more verses for you that you asked for in your original post!


Revelation 20:10 says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented forever and ever. Those are the exact words. So hell is a place of eternal conscious torment at least for them...so I don't see why it would be like that only for them and not the others who are there. I know that some of Revelation is symbolic, but I don't see how there's any other way to interpret "they will be tormented forever and ever".


Revelation 19:20 says that that same thing will also happen to "those who worshiped the devil's image". Revelation 20:15 and 21:8 goes even farther and says that anyone who isn't saved from their sins will be thrown into that same lake of fire. I don't really understand why some souls in the lake of fire would be tormented forever while others were just quickly destroyed and done with without pain. That doesn't make sense to me.


Revelation 20:14 says that the lake of fire is the second death, and since we know that at least some suffer in that lake of fire, we know that "death" doesn't have to mean being completely destroyed and gone.

I hope that helps. I think that's all I know for real this time. lol

Last edited by Megan1; April 13th 2012 at 02:47 AM.
   
  (#24 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Oh, by "hell forever", I just meant that they are never saved and never get out. I didn't mean to say for sure that they are suffering there forever. That is what I think, but that's not what I was trying to say there. And I don't think that "destroyed" is symbolic either, I think it's literal....but if you are suffering in a lake of fire forever, you pretty much are destroyed, even if you are conscious and suffering. Like if someone says "I destroyed my car", that doesn't mean that the car is completely gone or that you can't hurt it any more...it just means that it's really messed up. That's how I see it when the bible says that people will be destroyed. Hell really messes you up, it destroys you, but that doesn't mean you're completely gone. You could be right, but that's how I take it. I don't know for sure.


Oh, and I found more verses for you that you asked for in your original post!


Revelation 20:10 says that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented forever and ever. Those are the exact words. So hell is a place of eternal conscious torment at least for them...so I don't see why it would be like that only for them and not the others who are there. I know that some of Revelation is symbolic, but I don't see how there's any other way to interpret "they will be tormented forever and ever".


Revelation 19:20 says that that same thing will also happen to "those who worshiped the devil's image". Revelation 20:15 and 21:8 goes even farther and says that anyone who isn't saved from their sins will be thrown into that same lake of fire. I don't really understand why some souls in the lake of fire would be tormented forever while others were just quickly destroyed and done with without pain. That doesn't make sense to me.


Revelation 20:14 says that the lake of fire is the second death, and since we know that at least some suffer in that lake of fire, we know that "death" doesn't have to mean being completely destroyed and gone.

I hope that helps. I think that's all I know for real this time. lol


I'll respond the the Revelation verses when I get home. However, the word used for destroyed, in English, would literally mean "obliterate." That is, the Greek word used is similar to our word obliterate, which means:

ob·lit·er·ate /əˈblitəˌrāt/Verb: 1. Destroy utterly; wipe out. 2. Cause to become invisible or indistinct; blot out.

Which, I would say is not ECT.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#25 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 03:50 PM

Hmmm....I'm curious now and doing some research. Is the Greek word you were referring to ἐξαλείφω/exaleiphó?

If so, there are 3 different definitions of that word:

1. The number one definition is "plaster/wash over". In other words, drown. That definition could go either way really...it could mean that they were quickly plastered/washed over and then gone forever, or it could mean that they are forever drowning in the lake of fire. Either way really fits, so that doesn't really tell us much either way.

2. Another definition is "wipe off/wipe out". If the bible was using it this way, I could see how it could mean that they are completely quickly destroyed and gone forever. Wiped out could also just mean wiped out from the Earth/from God's presence though, so even this one really could go either way.

3. And the last definition of the word literally is "obliterate", which has many different meanings. According to dictionary.com, it also means "to render undecepherable". Undecepherable basically means unrecognizable. So, in other words, they are destroyed to the point that you can't even recognize them any more. That doesn't have to mean they are completely gone.

So, in conclusion.....it still could be either one and I did all that research for nothing. Let me know what you think about the Revelation verses when you get a chance, because this is really interesting me now. I know it's not that big of a deal, because either way God is just and there are people who need to be saved from hell...but this conversation definitely has me interested in learning even more about the bible.

Last edited by Megan1; April 13th 2012 at 04:24 PM. Reason: adding more information
   
  (#26 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 13th 2012, 11:18 PM

Forgive me if I do not make much sense right now. I am very light headed. I've been having spells of this recently. I am not sure the cause. I believe it is partially dehydration since I've been donating plasma. I'm uncertain though. Anyways, forgive me. Also, prepare for a long response.

First of all, I'll give you an example from a text I used: James 4:12.

The word used for destroy is apollumi. It means literally: "To destroy fully." It can also mean "reversal" or "departure." But, read literally, it means "to destroy fully." It comes from the word apo, which means cessation, and the base is olethros which means to destroy. Olethros is also used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 to say that the wicked, those who do not obey the Gospel, will be punished with everlasting destruction, away from G-D's presence.

So, in the most honest sense, the word destroy, means just that. Destroyed. Obliterated. Non-existent. Done away with. Gone. The death of both body and soul.

Now, as to the Revelation verses. We have to keep in mind, this is not an excuse, that the book of Revelation is a prophecy. ALL prophecy is HIGHLY symbolic, and not to be taken literal. For example, again, Christ is described as a Lamb in Revelation. We know, Christ is a G-D-Man, not a Lamb. He is also said to have a sword coming out of His mouth to judge the nations, well then, how is He going to speak? It's clear, and it would be foolish to think otherwise, that Revelation is very figurative and symbolic. The sword, is obviously a reference to the Bible. He is going to judge them according to His word, His sword, which will be through His speech. Because His word is sharper than any two-edged sword piercing both bone and marrow.

However, to address the question. I will due away with this "forever and ever," nonsense. As aforementioned, it is a prophecy. Therefore, forever and ever is more than likely figurative. It's relative. It's not literally "forever and ever." I will show you how I can prove this in a minute, but first lets discuss the phrase "forever and ever." The words used does not literally mean, "Forever and ever," but it means "for ages and ages."

Therefore, it can be said, they will be tormented for ages and ages. Thus, everlasting, or in this case, forever and ever, means age-lasting. In other words, it would come to an end. Now, if I know Protestant theology, your mind is still in denial. But, I will prove to you that this is true with scripture.

First, I will leave you with Jude 1:7 which reads, "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

Need I tell you, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning?

But let me go even further... In fact, I will quote a brother in Christ:
Where did John the Revelator derive his "forever" terminology from?

From Isaiah 34!
Isaiah
34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, [and] the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Can we see what's going on here? We see that while the smoke rises up forever and ever, and the fire is not quenched, right after, in the same land where that fire is burning, we find owls laying their nests, thorns growing, beasts out in the pasture, the ravens dwelling in it, and it "lieing WASTE". When something lies "WASTE", there is no fire burning.

Therefore, now we can see clearer Jewish and Hebrew terminology. For the smoke to rise up forever and ever simply means that the smoke rises up "forever and ever OUT OF SIGHT!" In other words, it goes up forever and ever and leaves forever. Rises up forever out of sight. Isaiah 34 is the death-knell against the "eternal torment" theory when quoting Revelation, because the proponents of it simply fail to realize where John is deriving his cryptic and poetic terminology from.

Let's look at this again. In Isaiah 34:10, namely. This, again, is another Prophetic book. HIGHLY symbolic. Therefore, can be easily compared to Revelation. Isaiah 34:10 reads:

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Yet, that fire is not STILL burning. Nor is the smoke still going up. Is it?

Now, as to the beast, etc. being tormented. We can easily see that this book is highly symbolic, now. Therefore, the beast is, again symbolic. These symbols are mentioned as evils in the world. Not individuals. Therefore, if you read the following verses after, it is simply saying, in easier terms: Rebellion against G-D will end. John Stott. Look him up. Read some of his stuff on annihilation. I will leave you with a couple references if you are still interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Fire-That-Cons.../dp/0595143423

and

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk...oyed_gray.html



Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

May the truth belong to G-D, and the mistakes be mine, and may He forgive me for them.

To the rest:
I'm sorry.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan

Last edited by ThisWillDestroyYou; April 13th 2012 at 11:29 PM.
   
  (#27 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 15th 2012, 05:02 PM

Anyone have more input? I'm looking for some more challenges.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#28 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 15th 2012, 08:49 PM

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply. Also, I'm sorry that you haven't been feeling well. I'll be praying for you. I really don't want to debate, so I'm just going to say a few things with serious questions I have for you about your response:

There are several definitions of apollumi, and it's only speculation to say which one the bible meant. One of the definitons could mean that they are completely destroyed, but another definition of that word is "put out of the way" (which could just mean put in hell or put out of God's presence) and another is even "to give over to an eternal misery". So, it doesn't have to mean that they are completely destroyed and gone. I personally think it means the "to give over to an eternal misery" one since the bible talks about eternal punishment in Matthew (which I'll get to in a second) and talks about suffering in hell (whether eternal or not) in Revelation...but I could be wrong.

If you think that every time the bible says "forever" it really just means "for a long time", how will you ever know if ECT is real? Because even if the bible ever did say "they will be tormented in hell forever" (which Revelation basically does), you would think that it just meant "they will be tormented in hell for ages". How would you know the difference if the bible did talk about ECT?

I know that Revelation is symbolic in many ways, but how else do you think you can interpret "they will be tormented in a lake of fire forever and ever"? Even if that did mean "for ages and ages", it would still say "they will be tormented in a lake of fire for ages and ages". So do you believe that they will be tormented, just not forever?

Also, aside from that, I found another scripture. Matthew 25:46 (which isn't a parable or prophecy and gives no reason to believe that it's symbolic) says that those who aren't saved will have "eternal punishment". It doesn't straight up say that it will be conscious torment, but it also doesn't quite sound like they will just be destroyed. Just a thought.

Last edited by Megan1; April 15th 2012 at 09:02 PM.
   
  (#29 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 16th 2012, 12:59 AM

I'll respond tonight or tomorrow. I was literally responding to the last question, and the page refreshed and erased everything I wrote. I'm too upset to re-write all that I did, lol. But know, I have a response for everything.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#30 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 16th 2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
There are several definitions of apollumi, and it's only speculation to say which one the bible meant. One of the definitons could mean that they are completely destroyed, but another definition of that word is "put out of the way" (which could just mean put in hell or put out of God's presence) and another is even "to give over to an eternal misery".
I do not know where you are getting your definitions from. I've used several concordances, and none of them translate it "to give over to an eternal misery." The only thing I get that is similar is: "To put away with completely." The only guess I have is that you were using a concordance that adheres to a ECT theology, and then placed their own definition in there. Which, I know sounds dishonest, and unlikely, but believe me. It's not. It happens all the time. That's why you should go with concordances used by many theologians.

But, I'll give you a real example. The Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons translate their Bibles completely different. They do this by translating words to their own liking. They don't use the literal translation. This seems to be the case in what you've provided.

The problem with the definitions you've prescribed is that they make no sense. The word apollumi comes from apo and ollumi. Apo, when used a prefix, gives this idea of cessation.

apo' a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

Since it is used a prefix in this case it most likely means: separation, departure, cessation, completion, or reversal. Now, given the context and the ollumi after it, the only words that make logical sense is: cessation or completion. Why? Because of ollumi. Since ollumi is our primary word: primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:--destruction.

This means that only complete destruction, or a cessation destruction, make sense. Even departure. The only way separation would make sense is if we ASSUME that it is speaking of ECT. But, if we had no prior knowledge of ETC, we would see that these two words are the only logical option.

In fact, even the word ollumi implies an eternal destruction when used as a primary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I personally think it means the "to give over to an eternal misery"
I don't see how you get this at all. Honestly, if you hadn't heard of ETC, I doubt you'd believe in it. The thing is, the word misery isn't even mention in either apo or ollumi. The word for misery is entirely different. The word for misery is talaiporos and is only used twice in the NT. In neither instance is it used to describe ETC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
If you think that every time the bible says "forever" it really just means "for a long time", how will you ever know if ECT is real?
I didn't say I think that every time the Bible says forever it really just means for a long time. In fact, in many translations, it doesn't translate it "forever." It often translates it, "Age lasting," or "ages and ages." I.E. Young's Literal Translation, probably one of the most accurate Bibles to date.

But, the word for forever is completely different. The word forever is only used twice. It is used once to describe G-D, and the other it is used as a prophesy. The word is aidios. It is never used to describe the eternal fate of the non-saved.

Did you read the Isaiah passage I posted?

Also, let me reverse the question to you. How will you ever know if annihilationism is true, if you never translate, "destruction," as "destruction?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Because even if the bible ever did say "they will be tormented in hell forever" (which Revelation basically does),
It doesn't say that. It says a bunch of metaphorical creatures will be tormented in Hell for ages and ages. It never says aidios. And it never says the un-saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
you would think that it just meant "they will be tormented in hell for ages". How would you know the difference if the bible did talk about ECT?
Because it would use the word for forever. Not the word which means, "An age."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I know that Revelation is symbolic in many ways, but how else do you think you can interpret "they will be tormented in a lake of fire forever and ever"?
Sodom isn't still burning, David isn't still King of Israel, etc.

Did you read the Isaiah passage I posted?

But how do I interpret this Revelation passage? I believe G-D is simply saying that wickedness will be done away with forever. Even if I took it literally, I would take it as, "The Devil, the Beast, etc. will be tormented for ages," because they weren't given eternal life. I wouldn't take it to mean anything of ETC, namely, nothing to do with the unsaved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Even if that did mean "for ages and ages", it would still say "they will be tormented in a lake of fire for ages and ages". So do you believe that they will be tormented, just not forever?
In this passage, I don't believe it is talking about a physical torment. I believe it is G-D putting an end to wickedness. However, I do believe everyone will suffer for what they've done ( Job 34:11, Psalms 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Ecc. 3:17, Jer. 17:10, Ez. 36:19, Matt. 16:27, 2 Cor. 11:15, Romans 2:6, 2 Timothy 4:14, etc.). I'm not G-D, but I don't believe it'd be right for Hitler to suffer the same punishment as a 13 year old kid. And I think the Bible teaches as I believe. That the wicked will be judged and suffer according to what they've done, and then be destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Also, aside from that, I found another scripture. Matthew 25:46 (which isn't a parable or prophecy and gives no reason to believe that it's symbolic) says that those who aren't saved will have "eternal punishment". It doesn't straight up say that it will be conscious torment, but it also doesn't quite sound like they will just be destroyed. Just a thought.
It really doesn't, though. To be destroyed is an eternal punishment.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#31 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 16th 2012, 05:23 PM

I hate when the page refreshes when you're typing! lol

I wasn't using a bible concordance; I just looked the word up on Google and clicked on a few different links. I don't know where those sites got their information though. So, let's just say that you are right and it doesn't mean eternal misery...even if that is the case, we both agree that one definition is "to put away with completely". That defintion alone could mean either way- it could mean that they are completely destroyed, or it could just mean that God puts them out of His presence forever. So, either way, that doesn't prove either of our cases.


What is the word in Revelation that translates to "forever and ever" or "for ages and ages"? I can't really answer your comments about that until I know what the original word is and research it.


To answer your question, I never said that "destroy" doesn't mean "destroy". I just said that there are other possible meanings of the word too and we need to look at ALL of them- not just one.


Also, you said that Revelation says that a bunch of metaphoric creatures will be tormented in a lake of fire for ages and ages and doesn't say that that will happen to the unsaved. That's not true though. Revelation 19:20, 20:15, and 21:8 says that the unsaved will be thrown into the same lake of fire that the metaphoric creatures are thrown into. And since the metaphoric creatures suffer while they are there, and the unsaved go to the same place, it's just my assumption that the unsaved also suffer there. The last part is just my assumption though, so take it with a grain of salt.


For the record though, I do agree that there are different degress of punishment in hell and that not everybody receives the same punishment....but I do think (just think, not sure) that everyone's punishment is ECT- just different degrees of it.
   
  (#32 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 17th 2012, 01:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I hate when the page refreshes when you're typing! lol
Me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I wasn't using a bible concordance; I just looked the word up on Google and clicked on a few different links. I don't know where those sites got their information though.
I tried Google for it, too. I couldn't find anything relatively similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
So, let's just say that you are right and it doesn't mean eternal misery...even if that is the case, we both agree that one definition is "to put away with completely".
Every time the word ollumi is used in the Bible, it is used as destruction, death, and perishing. So, the definition is most likely, "Complete destruction/death." Since ollumi is our base word, it can only be translated as destruction, as translators do. And with apo as the prefix, it can only mean complete destruction.

Is it possible the Apostle meant "to put away with completely"? I guess it would be possible. But, highly unlikely. Let me speak as if I were John for a second. If every time I used the word ollumi in my prophecy and my Gospel, I used it to give this idea of destruction, (physical) death, etc. then it would be logical that when I say apollumi, I mean destruction of body and soul. Not, "to put away with completely."

However, if I were to even agree with you on that definition, which I don't, not because I stand an annihilationist, but because it doesn't make logical or grammatical sense, the understanding of "to put away with completely," can be translated loosely. That is, when I read, "to put away with completely," I under stand "to put away," as death. Especially within the context that it is speaking of.

Logically, however, if Hell is a physical place, then it is created by G-D. Therefore, Hell isn't a place where G-D isn't. It is a place of G-D's wrath. So, they wouldn't be put away with from His presence. In fact, it wouldn't fit in the context. The place of "unseen" is the word Gehenna. So, it would make sense if John just said the will be in Gehenna for aidios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
What is the word in Revelation that translates to "forever and ever" or "for ages and ages"? I can't really answer your comments about that until I know what the original word is and research it.
The Greek word is aion. But, you need to have a little understanding of Greek terminology before understanding the use of aion in the NT. But, the simplest way to explain it, is aion means an indefinite amount of time. It is often used to explain the age of the Earth, and in fact, is even sometimes translated as "world." So, when they said they will be tormented an aion, the ECT will say, "Oh, well, this obviously means forever." But, it actually means an indefinite amount of time. So, we COULD say "forever," but again, forever is relative. For example, we say, "I'll love you forever." But, we mean forever to mean age-lasting. Similarily, that is how this word is used. You can say, "They'll be tormented forever." But, forever is simply a way to say, "They'll be tormented until they die." How? Via the second death.

So, if you want to say, "Well, aion means forever." That's fine, but it doesn't mean literally FOREVER, it just means an age. Just like the Earth hasn't been around forever, they still used aion to define the age of the Earth. So, then, if you say, "Well, the unsaved will be tormented forever," then, the Earth too, has been around forever and ever, which is a direct conflict with Genesis 1.

Read this:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

This eternal fire is from the same word we get aion. Yet, Sodom and Gomorrha aren't still burning. So, we see, Sodom and Gomorroha burned for an age (the time until it stopped burning). In other words Sodom suffered until it was completely destroyed. Yet, it Jude, we are told that this is the same fate that waits for the wicked. Thus, it gives us a clear image that the wicked will suffer for an age, like Sodom, and be destroyed from that same fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
To answer your question, I never said that "destroy" doesn't mean "destroy". I just said that there are other possible meanings of the word too and we need to look at ALL of them- not just one.
Completely destroy can only mean one thing to me, sorry. I don't mean to sound brief, but the imagery used in the Bible, example, the Isaiah passage, Sodom and Gomorrha, all gives this image of completely being wiped out till there is nothing left. Then, I can only take destruction to mean that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Also, you said that Revelation says that a bunch of metaphoric creatures will be tormented in a lake of fire for ages and ages and doesn't say that that will happen to the unsaved. That's not true though. Revelation 19:20, 20:15, and 21:8 says
Rev. 19:20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast -- the two -- to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

Rev 21:8 8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'

They are tormented for a time, then receive the second death. Just as Jude speaks of Sodom. We must also note that G-D then creates everything new. A place where there will be no more weeping, no more tears, a place where there is no more mourning, or pain. A place with no more death. This is all within the Revelation 21 passage. Thus, in the context, G-D is putting away the evil. Destroying it. Why? Because death can't continue. So, if death means, "eternal conscious torment," then how could it continue in this new place? And if He pours them into the lake of fire, the second death, why would He recreate Hell if there is going to be no more pain? Thus, He is destroying them.

The word used for death here is thanatos. It literally means death or to be dead. And since only living things (those saved) have consciousness, I'm pretty sure they can't be in ECT.

Despite this, as a Protestant, you, I believe are Sola Scriptura (bible alone). You are going out of the Bible to pure speculation. This argument can't really hold. If I said, "Well, Satan is G-D," you can't disprove this because it's pure speculation. After all, he is described as the g-d of this world. (I don't believe this, btw).

The biggest problem you have with defending ECT, as I see it, is you are trying to prove a word means forever (aion), which doesn't mean forever, and has been used in a temporal incident in Jude.

Oh, and before I move on, the word for death in verse 8 is the same word used for death in verse 4 which says there will be no more death. Thus, G-D has to destroy them all before there can be no more death. They will suffer before the new Creation, but not after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
For the record though, I do agree that there are different degress of punishment in hell and that not everybody receives the same punishment....but I do think (just think, not sure) that everyone's punishment is ECT- just different degrees of it.
This doesn't make logical sense with the rest of your argument. You said that the wicked go to the same Lake of Fire as the Devil, etc. If this is true, using your logic, they will all be tormented in the same severity and manner because they go to the same place. It makes more consistent sense that all these will suffer and then receive the second death before all things are made new.

If you are really interested in this, please read the book called "The Fire that Consumes," by Fudge. And if you don't have the time or money, at least check out this sermon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpY9ikfydHM


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#33 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 19th 2012, 02:26 AM

I typed out a big reply, but then I thought about it and I want to ask you this first.

Do you really want me to answer this because you want to know more, or do you just want to prove me wrong? Because I'm not interested in debating and already told you that I don't know the answer for sure, but think that I probably do. Plus, this isn't something that even really matters as long as we know that the unsaved go to hell (reguardless of what happens there).

So, should we continue or stop?
   
  (#34 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 19th 2012, 12:14 PM

Well, its both. I don't believe ECT IS a proper representation of G-D's love, mercy, or forgiveness. I believe it to be thoroughly inconsistent logically and utterly unbiblical. I do not wish to believe in it, so in that aspect, I hope to prove you wrong. However, I have yet to hear one convincing argument. I feel that so far, all I have is an opinion, loargely based on appealing to the masses within Christianity, and not rooted in any consistant rendering or translation of the Bible. So, while I'm waiting for a valid exegesis of scripture, and a consistent teaching thorough out the Bible, so that I might be challenged, I do hope you are wrong. So it would be dishonest of.me to say that i don't want to prove you wrong, I do. I hope to change your mind and others to a more consistent biblical teaching that doesnt make G-D a devil.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#35 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 23rd 2012, 02:14 AM

I haven't forgotten about replying to you. It's been a really rough week and I haven't gotten to be online much. I'll get back to you asap.
   
  (#36 (permalink)) Old
BigBL87 Offline
Member
Regular TeenHelper
*****
 
BigBL87's Avatar
 
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Location: Illinois

Posts: 452
Join Date: April 10th 2009

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 24th 2012, 06:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Well, its both.
Real quick, just going to point out that that goes against what you stated in your OP, that you didn't want to debate but to learn. Learning will come as a natural part of debate, but honestly saying you didn't want to debate was kind of silly.

As a point of discussion, in your opinion do the words αἰών or αἰώνιος
absolutely never mean eternal? Or is their meaning determined by context?

I'll add as an aside that my understanding of Christian hell has been developing for many years and will continue to. My understanding is leaning more towards the annihilationist approach that you seem to espouse, admittedly, but is not fully there. Four years at a Bible college and 3 in a seminary have a way of making you reexamine your beliefs and understandings. I have come to the point of realizing that I probably will never know for sure the exact nature of hell, but also realizing that my understanding of hell does not affect my salvation.
   
  (#37 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 24th 2012, 03:50 PM

Yes, you're quite right, I said I didn't want to debate. However, forgive me for my lack of clarity: when I speak of debate, I generally mean (on forums) I do not wish to have senseless debates that are more of subpoints or debate just for debate. I.e. an atheist coming in an saying, "There is no Hell." And getting into a sub debate save if they were using scripture to prove their point. As to the rest of your post, I'll respond tonight.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#38 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 24th 2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
As a point of discussion, in your opinion do the words αἰών or αἰώνιος [/font]absolutely never mean eternal? Or is their meaning determined by context?


For me, I believe it all depends on the context. However, I cannot find one instance in the NT which it is used to mean eternal. Now, let me clarify what I mean. I do not believe the word αἰώνιος can ever be proven to mean eternal, infinite, forever and ever, etc. I believe YLT (as many tranditionalists believe) translate the word correctly as: an age.

Now, there are instances it could be implied that it means forever, but there's no way of knowing for certain. For example, in Mark 4:19 it reads this in ESV:

"but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other t
things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful."

Now, to point something out to others, the word "world" here is the same word used for "forever" in the Revelation passage. So, it's kind of ironic that the translators don't translate it, "but the cares of the forever..." Clearly it can't mean forever. And forever can't really mean "world." So what would be the proper word to place there? Age. "but the cares of [this] age..." as YLT correctly does:

"and the anxieties of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, and the desires concerning the other things, entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."

Now, back to my point. In some cases we have the word eis in front of aion. Which, literally translated would mean, "Into the age[s]." Which, I guess you could translate the "ages" to mean eternal which is induction. The only way one would believe that is if they believed one of the ages to be eternal. Which, kind of begs the question, why didn't the author just use the word for eternal instead of saying, "Into the ages." Which asks another question, if there are "ages" to come (Ephesians 2:7), then how could there be "forevers to come?"

It gets kind of silly the arguments people will dish out just to support an argument that doesn't fit logically or biblically. Aion, to my mind, most definitely means a finite age. Though, I will say, there is room to argue that it could mean eternal, but it seems fishy to do so, and even if it does, in the context of Revelation, it doesn't fit to mean "eternal." Especially if all things will be made new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
I'll add as an aside that my understanding of Christian hell has been developing for many years and will continue to. My understanding is leaning more towards the annihilationist approach that you seem to espouse, admittedly, but is not fully there. Four years at a Bible college and 3 in a seminary have a way of making you reexamine your beliefs and understandings. I have come to the point of realizing that I probably will never know for sure the exact nature of hell, but also realizing that my understanding of hell does not affect my salvation.
I don't believe any one will ever know for certain. Especially after all of us have been entrenched in traditions for so long. It's difficult to say dogmatically, "No! Hell is finite!" Yet, the traditionalist in you wants to say, "No! Hell is eternal." So, you have this internal battle in you, at least I do. It is as if I KNOW Hell is finite, but I don't want to believe it (though, paradoxically, I really do want to believe G-D isn't that cruel), I want to stick to my tradition because it makes everything simpler.

I believe, if we all tossed tradition aside and our Greek philosophies that overwhelmed the Early Church, we would see a great reformation, and one of the doctrines to be reformed would be Hell. It just seems tradition makes us insensitive and unwilling to budge.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#39 (permalink)) Old
BigBL87 Offline
Member
Regular TeenHelper
*****
 
BigBL87's Avatar
 
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Location: Illinois

Posts: 452
Join Date: April 10th 2009

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 26th 2012, 02:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
For me, I believe it all depends on the context. However, I cannot find one instance in the NT which it is used to mean eternal. Now, let me clarify what I mean. I do not believe the word αἰώνιος can ever be proven to mean eternal, infinite, forever and ever, etc. I believe YLT (as many tranditionalists believe) translate the word correctly as: an age.
I will respectfully disagree with you on αἰώνιος. It simply can't mean "an age," because αἰώνιος is an adjective and "an age" is a noun with an indefinite article. Also, αἰώνιος is the word most often used to describe "eternal life." In fact in Matthew 25:46, a form of αἰώνιος is used to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. As you've discussed before, annihilation is certainly an eternal punishment, but my point here is that if you believe that we inherit eternal life, than αἰώνιος needs to be accepted as at least possibly meaning eternal, and definitely does in 25:46. If that is not the author's intent, they certainly would have found a different word or euphemism to differentiate (ἀί̈διος, for example). In fact, αἰώνιος is best translated as eternal in virtually every usage in the New Testament. αἰών(as a noun) certainly can have a more variable meaning as you have shown, and in fact is rarely used as meaning eternal.

For me, the crux of the issue is that if
αἰώνιος means eternal when referring to eternal life, it very well must be considered that it likely refers to eternal in other instances. That spans NT authors as well, it is virtually universally used to describe eternal (everlasting, if you prefer) life. So, I guess my next question is, do you believe that we inherit eternal life?
   
  (#40 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - April 26th 2012, 02:24 PM

I still disagree. I'll respond why later when I have time. The only reason I believe Christians have eternal life is because they are given G-D's Spirit, and He is the only One eternal in the true sense of the word.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
conscious, ect or traditionalists, eternal, hell, torment

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All material copyright ©1998-2019, TeenHelp.
Terms | Legal | Privacy | Conduct | Complaints

Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search engine optimization by vBSEO.
Theme developed in association with vBStyles.