Lesbians dating FTM transgenders?

[better-than-ecstasy]

Okay, so my friend and I are kind of like debating over this topic and I need help.

Okay as by far my definition of lesbian is girls that like girls..

My friend claims that she's lesbian because she likes girls and transgenders.

I claim that I'm bisexual because I like girls and transgenders.

I say that because an FTM isn't really a girl, right? And a transgender is a different gender? Am I correct?

So if you were a girl and you liked girls and FTMs, would you be lesbian or bisexual? That's what I'm really asking..
Yeah I know I shouldn't worry about labels and stuff... but I kind of wanna know what defines lesbian.

[Ennui.]

People should be treated as what they identify as. Of course, label yourself as whatever you feel most comfortable with and sometimes people have different definitions of this but if a person identities as male they're male, female as female. So if you like both those who identify as females and sometimes those who identify as male then that sounds more like bisexual. But identify with whatever you feel comfortable with.

[Evanesco]

Ok, this really irritates me for a number of reasons, so sorry if I come across as touchy. Firstly, I'm not a transgender. I am a transgender person. A trans man to be more specific. A 'transgender' is not a 'different' gender. Ftm is not some special extra gender, all it means is that the person has transitioned from female to male, or is in the process of transitioning. They were assigned female at birth but they are a boy.

Because of this, if you like women and trans men then you're bisexual, because you like women and men. You don't like all men (only trans men), but they are men so really you don't fit the label of lesbian.

The really troubling thing here is why do you like people who are ftm but not men? If it's because they have vaginas then that's kind of insulting. Plus, most trans men, especially as you get older, will look like, well, men. Because taking testosterone makes you hairy, makes you smell like a man, makes your voice deeper etc. Trans men may look like women when they're younger but most want to get away from that, and they want someone who will treat them as a man, not date them because they're practically a girl or something like that.

Obviously your identity is personal and all people make exceptions (eg a lesbian who dates one trans man might still call themselves a lesbian, in the same way that a straight person who dates one person of the same gender might still consider themselves straight), but from personal experience, if lesbians find me attractive or want to date me it can feel invalidating and insulting because what that's saying is 'I'm attracted to girls but you have a vagina and look girly so I like you too' when that's the bit of me I hate. Also, the whole lumping all trans men together is insulting as well. Once a trans man has had surgery, they have a penis. A lot of trans men have a goal of getting surgery. Once they've had surgery, what would make them attractive to a lesbian? It's kind of saying we'll never be real men, we either have to be classed as female or have a group of our own. And that sucks.

Sorry I rambled...

[Rivière]

I think in the real world there is more to life than "Lesbian" or "Bisexual" or "Gay". I'm quite cheerfully happy to label myself as lesbian because it's easier and I'm extremely comfortable with this label, however, if I was to label myself more accurate I'd say, "Homo-romantic". The likelihood of someone knowing what such a label means isn't exactly very large and if I said to someone I identified as that and not lesbian, they'd ask me what the label meant. It's far easier to say "Lesbian" because people know I'm into women and not men but if I was to say, "Homo-romantic" people would ask me what it is and then I'd have to respond with, "It means that I'm homosexual but I have the capabilities to be with the opposite sex for a romantic but not sexual relationship".

The way I see it is that a transgendered person is just simply shifting their outer-body from one sex to another. Inside themselves they already are what sex they are it's just that their outside doesn't match. For example a Male transitioning to a Female. Inside they know they're male but on the outside they look female. It doesn't mean that they're a 3rd sex or gender. It just means they're switching from one gender/sex to another.

In my personal opinion, if a girl truly is a lesbian, wholly and completely, they would be attracted to the female who is transitioning to a male because they still class them as female. As Harry said, if a lesbian found a trans Female to Male, would the lesbian still find them attractive? Personally I think not because they're looking for the physical aspects of a female which are no longer present.

Have you heard the term Polysexuality? It's a term used to describe someone who has the attraction to multiple genders but don't wish to identify as bisexual. People who tend to identify as polysexual are capable of being attracted to all genders.

[better-than-ecstasy]

See, that is kind of my point. I know I kind of sounded insulting and that wasn't what I was trying to do. So I'm really sorry about that.

I find it wrong to call myself lesbian and still like FTM men. That's because it sounds like I don't see them as a man. Which I do.

I have two friends that are FTM and I have dated one. I saw them as a man. Now, I agree with you that it sounds wrong that I like FTM men, but not "regular" men? I know that doesn't really make sense, but it kind of is that way. I find the whole transitioning thing really interesting. I'm into that kind of stuff. No, I don't just like any FTM person out there because they transition. It sounds hard to believe, but its true. I find a lot of people that are FTM very attractive. That's just who I am. I don't like them because they have a vagina, I like them for who they are, what they've been through.

But in any case, I do like the idea of "Homo-romantic." And I agree that's not what you really hear most of the time. And related, I've heard pansexual.

[Coffee.]

I think sexuality is fluent. Your friend can identify as lesbian and like men, women, FtM, MtF, genderqueers, whatever, and she can still identify as a lesbian if she mainly likes women. It's her identity. I identify as heterosexual/heteroflexible. I'm mainly attracted to people who identify as men, and some who identify as women and genderqueer individuals, but mostly "masculine" people.

I agree with Harry in saying that FtM people are an "FtM" gender. They identify as male. Therefore, they're men. Therefore, you also like men. However, I believe you could still identify as a lesbian or maybe as "homoflexible" if you sometimes like men.

[cherrypie36]

Look, who gives a shit? If a lesbian wants to date a FTM, let her.
If she is attracted to someone is FTM and still identify's as a lesbian, let her.

you shouldn't be able to tell someone they aren't lesbian if they are attracted or dating someone who is FTM, how they identify is how they identify and nobody and i mean nobody should tell them how they should.

[better-than-ecstasy]

I also like the idea of "homoflexible"
And I completly understand about not telling people what their sexuality is. I'm not telling anybody what they should or should not be. I'm just trying to find out for myself, what I am. But I also wanted to understand how my friend viewed this topic, the side l wasn't seeing. Therefore I made this thread, maye I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not correct on what qualifies as what and who all is comfortable with what, at the same time trying not to hurt anybody. If I call myself lesbian, I don't want to hurt someone that is trans and have them thunk that I only like them as a girl. So therefore I made this thread, to see how society takes a handle on a topic like this.

[Evanesco]

Originally Posted by cherrypie36

Look, who gives a shit? If a lesbian wants to date a FTM, let her.
If she is attracted to someone is FTM and still identify's as a lesbian, let her.

you shouldn't be able to tell someone they aren't lesbian if they are attracted or dating someone who is FTM, how they identify is how they identify and nobody and i mean nobody should tell them how they should.

No, but the issue here isn't with the person's identity necessarily. It's with whether or not saying you're a lesbian de - legitimises the identities of the trans guys you date. I would never date someone who self IDed as a lesbian because I would feel (regardless of whether or not this was true) that I was being treated as a girl not a boy.

[cherrypie36]

well, its up to you personally to believe they are treating you as a girl not a boy.
if someone had an amazing personality, i would date them regardless. FTM or not

but don't avoid people like this because of a theory.

[PrettyBoiSwag]

Me personally I would not date a lesbian I only date straight girls and bisexual girls, Because If a lesbian trys to date me shes not respecting my idenity as male so no, And we are men just with a birth defect, Their is no third gender

Originally Posted by LiveLongAndProsper

No, but the issue here isn't with the person's identity necessarily. It's with whether or not saying you're a lesbian de - legitimises the identities of the trans guys you date. I would never date someone who self IDed as a lesbian because I would feel (regardless of whether or not this was true) that I was being treated as a girl not a boy.

Originally Posted by PrettyBoiSwag

Me personally I would not date a lesbian I only date straight girls and bisexual girls, Because If a lesbian trys to date me shes not respecting my idenity as male so no, And we are men just with a birth defect, Their is no third gender

I agree that it's insulting if they're attracted to FTMs simply because they still have vaginas. However, everyone makes exceptions. And some people who identify as lesbian may be attracted to both but choose to identify that way because they're primarily attracted to women. That's the problem with labels -- you can't rely on them 100% to be able to know how exactly a person identifies, as a lot of it is up to personal interpretation. Without an explanation from the person herself, you're filling the silence with your own assumptions, which may or may not be true. For all you know, someone who is bisexual may be just as likely to treat you as a girl as someone who is lesbian -- or more. My point is, I think you should always ask for the details of a person's sexuality before assuming that she's trying to undermine your masculinity. Just like you don't want people making assumptions about your gender, others don't want to be misjudged by their sexuality -- because that's rather insulting and small-minded, too.

[cherrypie36]

Originally Posted by Soliloquy.

I agree that it's insulting if they're attracted to FTMs simply because they still have vaginas. However, everyone makes exceptions. And some people who identify as lesbian may be attracted to both but choose to identify that way because they're primarily attracted to women. That's the problem with labels -- you can't rely on them 100% to be able to know how exactly a person identifies, as a lot of it is up to personal interpretation. Without an explanation from the person herself, you're filling the silence with your own assumptions, which may or may not be true. For all you know, someone who is bisexual may be just as likely to treat you as a girl as someone who is lesbian -- or more. My point is, I think you should always ask for the details of a person's sexuality before assuming that she's trying to undermine your masculinity. Just like you don't want people making assumptions about your gender, others don't want to be misjudged by their sexuality -- because that's rather insulting and small-minded, too.

^

THIS.

Another thing, but before i go into that, Your putting a whole group in here. Not every lesbian is like this and its not fair to judge someone or make an assumption because of their sexuality.

and the other thing, Don't avoid a group of people because of a theory you have, Its stupid. Don't avoid lesbians because you think they don't respect your gender

[Ennui.]

Hey all,

This seems to be starting to turn into a bit of a debate. A reminder to stay on topic.

-Dez

[cherrypie36]

Originally Posted by Terabithia.

Hey all,

This seems to be starting to turn into a bit of a debate. A reminder to stay on topic.

-Dez

its kind of debateable ...but not in my opinion.
People are starting insult a group of people (lesbians) and I don't like that. its disrespectful. FTM or not, You should respect people regardless of sexuality. People need to learn that. I don't give a damn who you are.

[better-than-ecstasy]

Yeah I agree with Dez. We're kind of off topic. I wasn't trying to hurt anybody or anything. I was confused by labels and my sexuality. I like the idea of Homo-flexible. I think I could go by that. Thank you guys for your opinions and putting me on the right track though.

[_Austin]

FTM transgenders are men, idk why you'd seperate them from the rest like they're some kind of inhuman thing. they're normal people.. you liking them means that you like men. thats it. there's no need to make it more complicated. but what i don't understand is why you like them and seperate them from men?

[better-than-ecstasy]

I know trans men are real people. I'm not trying to single them out or like them because they were born with female parts. I like the idea of transitioning. I get it, I'm weird. No, I don't like every transgender person because they transition but there's a whole different story behind them. You don't get that with every guy. I've liked a lot of trans men. For some reason I haven't met any other guy that I liked. But you're that doesn't mean that I don't like men. Maybe I do and I haven't found the one I like yet. I'm just confused. In some scientific ways, trans are looked at as a seperate gender. I guess that's the way I was looking at it at first. Secintifc, like my sexuality. I wanted to be specific. But obviously I was wrong and that's not the case. I needed to look at this subject more with an open mind. And I am now. I guess I'm still discovering my sexuality. I mean no harm to anybody or to offend any person on here. I was questioning, looking for answers. And I've gotten many. It sounds wrong that I like trans people I get that. I don't want it to be. I just feel like I can relate more. It's odd and doesn't sound too assuring. I'm sorry for that. I really am. I guess it's kind of hard o explain how my heart feels on the Internet or to anybody. I'm sorry if anybody has taken affense to my remarks, questions, anything of what I have said. That's not my intention. I was just looking for answers/ advice.

[Ennui.]

Thread closed as per user request.
Have a nice day!