10 year old girl in Illinois commits suicide over LGBT bullying

[Gymnophoria]

Article here.

What do you all think about this? I'm still completely shocked at all of it. It's so sad that a child that young would have to even think about suicide.

Edit: "We haven't uncovered anything so severe that would result in someone taking their life." They have NO idea how it felt to that little girl. No idea at all.

[The Goblins Blade]

The bullies are scum, end of story

[Lottie]

This story is so sad. Poor girl.

[Amberpamber]

I literally cried just reading the title. Can't believe some1 so young had to experience that and the mom didn't do anything right then and there. If that was my child I'd be on the phone instantly trying to find answers and put a stop to it, not have it wait for later. Rest In Peace Ashlynn, another soul taken from the Earth way too soon.

[Megan1]

I saw this a few days ago. It's so sad. Bullying really needs to be taken more seriously, or this is going to keep happening. I feel so bad for kids in public schools these days.

And this is slightly off topic, but the bullying had nothing to do with LGBT as far as what the news has said. Her mom only said that they were calling her ugly and a slut.

[leavemealone]

This is harder for me because I LIVE in Illinois... its just so sad that something like this can even happen. Why do people have to be so cruel?

[The Goblins Blade]

Humans work in the pack mentality, once this pack will see someone different they will attack.

[Aletheia*]

Poor child. What really got me was that in the comments on the article, not one person mentioned the girls death, but their own experiences. It's great that they want to share, but there was a more pressing issue that they should have been commenting on.

Truly sad.

[thebigmole]

So I'm the only one that finds the situation fishy. I mean the girl asks her mother if she can be home schooled, the mother didn't even say no she said they'd talk about it, and the next day she's dead. There had so be some sort of other issues with that girl besides bullying. I mean why in the world couldn't she wait, if it was that bad why didn't she tell her mother she needed to leave school right away. It just seems a bit odd to me, there had to be something else going on with that girl besides a few bullies.

[dr2005]

I don't know enough to comment about the bullying itself, but whatever has been going on it is incredibly sad for someone so young to feel the need to end their own life. It does make me question how much progress we're actually making if things like this can still happen without someone picking up on it. The situation now seems exactly the same as it was when I was still in school, and that's quite depressing really.

Anyway, RIP Ashlynn.

[wastedtime]

Originally Posted by The Goblins Blade

Humans work in the pack mentality, once this pack will see someone different they will attack.

I agree (though not all people) it only takes one little difference and suddenly it's like your an alien. It's sad Rip.

[Fairy Poppins]

I can't get my head around the fact that today's 10 year-old children have enough knowledge of LBGT to attribute it to their peers (assuming that's what they did).

Back when I was at school, kids were bullied for shallow things such as being overweight or having ginger hair. Not being gay, transgendered, etc. That kinda thing didn't happen 'til you were well into your teenage years.

Kids really are growing up way too fast. And nothing good is resulting from it.

RIP Ashlynn.

[Le bonheur*]

This was probably the saddest article I've read in a while. This ten year old girl committed suicide because of bullies. That's absolutely terrible... Rest In Peace Ashlynn. <3

[Squidgy]

It's so sad to even imagine someone that young committing suicide let alone it actually happening. Rip Ashlynn

[C0co]

Don't think this issue had anything to do with LGBT.

But it broke my heart when I heard this story over the news. This bullying issue is really getting out of hand.

[Fairy Poppins]

Originally Posted by C0co

Don't think this issue had anything to do with LGBT.

I too did wonder where the evidence is that the bullying was related to LGBT.

I assumed that the OP had some other knowledge that wasn't contained in the article.

[Megan1]

None of any of the articles or news stories that I've seen about this mentioned LGBT at all either. I don't think that had anything to do with it...

Reguardless of why she was bullied though, it's so sad.

[Cosmo]

Definitely something else going on. Why couldn't she wait a day? Either way, RIP.

[kadyCHAOS]

so sad, she's way too young. rest in peace ashlynn.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

I have sympathy for the family but not for the girl because that's like saying I have sympathy for someone who is blinded by selfishness and doesn't give a crap about their family.

I find the whole thing to be skeptical because she tells her mother some kids are bullying her and her mother listens, so in return the girl decides it's time to become a fixture of her closet? I know people aren't always rational, especially when they're stressed but if you're getting the response you want from someone who could help, why would you crap all over that and call it quits, so to speak?

[EmisaurusRex]

This is incredibly sad. I wonder how long the bullying had been going on for. I hope they figure some things out, even if it is too late for this girl, hopefully it can help the next kid.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I have sympathy for the family but not for the girl because that's like saying I have sympathy for someone who is blinded by selfishness and doesn't give a crap about their family.

She was only 10... I think that's a bit harsh. I'm usually on the edge about these long and tedious debates people get into when people posts threads about teens commiting sucide, but I think saying that a 10 year old who commited suicide was selfish and didn't give a crap about her family is a bit OTT.

As for the actual story, of course, it is incredibly sad, but I have a problem with these stories in general being labeled as 'due to bullying'. Normal 10 year olds don't have thoughts about killing themselves, much less go through with it. Obviously there was more going on (and by that I mean mentally). I don't think it's fair to pin the death of a child on other children. Yes, bullying is bad, and the kids who did it are more than likely little brats... but are they evil monsters who causeD a ten year old's death? No. It's unfair to say otherwise.

What strikes me more about this story is that there was a 10 year old going through those kind of problems (depression, suicidal thoughts etc) and nobody noticed. Not that a bunch of little shit heads were being cruel to a classmate.

Also unless you've got the information from somewhere else I don't know why this says LGBT bullying. I find it intereresting that people automatically assume that if a person kills themselves due to bullying, it was because they were gay. Because we all know gay bullying is worse than any other kind of bullying.

Originally Posted by Gymnophoria

Edit: "We haven't uncovered anything so severe that would result in someone taking their life." They have NO idea how it felt to that little girl. No idea at all.

Not to be rude but neither do you. Nobody does.

[Chaazza]

I think that it is really sad and nobody should be have to do this because they are getting bullied and at an age which is so young it is even more sad. It is not selfish it may have been the best option that she had because she couldn't take it anymore

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I have sympathy for the family but not for the girl because that's like saying I have sympathy for someone who is blinded by selfishness and doesn't give a crap about their family.

I find the whole thing to be skeptical because she tells her mother some kids are bullying her and her mother listens, so in return the girl decides it's time to become a fixture of her closet? I know people aren't always rational, especially when they're stressed but if you're getting the response you want from someone who could help, why would you crap all over that and call it quits, so to speak?

I do agree that suicide is wrong reguardless of age, but we do have to remember that she was only 10 and not using logic. At that age, it's very rare that they know how to rationalize it and say "this is only temporary; it will get better". Ten year olds rarely look at the long term. All that she was thinking was probably "This hurts too bad right now, I can't take it any more."

[Gymnophoria]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Not to be rude but neither do you. Nobody does.

I know, that's the point. What right does he have to say "it wasn't severe enough for suicide" when he has no clue how it felt to her? For anyone, bullying is tough, and it's led to a lot of suicides in the past. It's not for anyone to decide what is or isn't "severe enough".

The article I posted was actually the second one I read on this story, the first one talked about it being LGBT related because she was being called gay and told she looked like a boy. I didn't realise it wasn't mentioned in this one, sorry.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

She was only 10... I think that's a bit harsh. I'm usually on the edge about these long and tedious debates people get into when people posts threads about teens commiting sucide, but I think saying that a 10 year old who commited suicide was selfish and didn't give a crap about her family is a bit OTT.

A 10 year old would perfectly understand what death and suicide are. The fact the 10 year old used whatever fabric to tie a noose and hang herself shows she's not mentally impaired, so it's fair enough to say she knew exactly what she was doing.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

As for the actual story, of course, it is incredibly sad, but I have a problem with these stories in general being labeled as 'due to bullying'. Normal 10 year olds don't have thoughts about killing themselves, much less go through with it. Obviously there was more going on (and by that I mean mentally). I don't think it's fair to pin the death of a child on other children. Yes, bullying is bad, and the kids who did it are more than likely little brats... but are they evil monsters who causeD a ten year old's death? No. It's unfair to say otherwise.

There's always more to the story than what the news clipping gives. I agree, normally 10 year olds don't decide to off themselves unless there is another psychiatric factor at play. The other kids certainly played a part by bullying her but I agree, laying the blame square on their heads is unfair.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

What strikes me more about this story is that there was a 10 year old going through those kind of problems (depression, suicidal thoughts etc) and nobody noticed. Not that a bunch of little shit heads were being cruel to a classmate.

It's not necessarily that nobody noticed because they could have known but not given a shit or wouldn't think she'd kill herself.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Also unless you've got the information from somewhere else I don't know why this says LGBT bullying. I find it intereresting that people automatically assume that if a person kills themselves due to bullying, it was because they were gay. Because we all know gay bullying is worse than any other kind of bullying.

I assume this was directed at the OP but if it was directed at me, I didn't comment on the lack of LGBT bullying in the article because mostly everyone else already did.

Originally Posted by Chaazza

I think that it is really sad and nobody should be have to do this because they are getting bullied and at an age which is so young it is even more sad. It is not selfish it may have been the best option that she had because she couldn't take it anymore

Originally Posted by Megan1

All that she was thinking was probably "This hurts too bad right now, I can't take it any more."

The article said she told her mother who listened and the next day the girl killed herself, so it's obvious to me her mother was an alternate option that could have helped. However, pretending the mother didn't help, since when is ending your life the "best option"? Your reasoning glamorizes suicide because you view nothing wrong with it. If a person kill themselves over schoolyard bullying. That's a sign of ultimate weakness and cowardice. The selfishness is obvious because instead of trying to use the family for help (which the girl did and was successful at), they kill themselves, which to me waves off the family as though they're not even there, followed by potential whining that nobody was there for them. I'm sorry but if one contemplates suicide at that young of an age, I question how they'll manage through the hardships of life.

Again though, my sympathies go out to the family, it's got to be hard dealing with the aftermath of their suicidal child. Some families would view suicide as bringing shame onto the family name, so families have to cope with that also.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

A 10 year old would perfectly understand what death and suicide are. The fact the 10 year old used whatever fabric to tie a noose and hang herself shows she's not mentally impaired, so it's fair enough to say she knew exactly what she was doing.

It's not really the point of whether she knew what she was doing or not. I agree, the fact she used a noose to hang herself shows she understood what exactly it was that she was doing. It doesn't mean that she could fully process what exactly it meant in the long term and what the consequences would be. I don't mean she didn't understand she would die... I just mean that ten year olds are illogical and irrational by nature. Did she weigh up what it would mean for her family and decide to put her self first? Maybe, maybe not. Even if she did it's not something at least I as a ten year old could have fully comprehended.

All I'm saying is that it's fine to take that line with adults (suicide is selfish and you're purposely hurting your family if you do it) but to take the same line with children is probably not worth it because ten year olds are, well, ten year olds. If a ten year old kicked me in the leg I would have a completely different reaction from if an adult kicked me because I know that ten year olds are as I said, illogical, irrational... and kind of dumb by adult standards. And that also happens to be the reason why I've protested blaming the death on other kids that age because suicide and bullying are both horrible things but at ten I'm not going to judge them by adult standards.

Also, at ten I thought about suicide a lot. And I also thought about how my family and friends would feel if I killed myself. That was usually the point, to kill myself and imagine how everyone would react if I did. It was usually a reaction to you don't care/you did this/why do you act like.... you would feel bad if I died. And while I thought about intentionally causing pain like that to my friends and family, I loved them and if I could have fully understood the pain that losing a child or childhood friend would have caused them I wouldn't have even thought about it. But ten year olds don't think like that.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

It's not necessarily that nobody noticed because they could have known but not given a shit or wouldn't think she'd kill herself.

I agree, totally. All I meant was that our shock and horror should be focused towards the fact that this wasn't a little girl in an isolated cabin with no social contact except for her abusive parents. This was a girl who went to school, had friends, had family, probably had after school activities and what not... so how did nobody realise (or why did nobody care) that this was a very sick little girl and get her some help? Particularly with regards to the school which she spent a couple of hours a day with different adults who are trained to notice these things.

We shouldn't be saying OH GOD TEN YEAR OLDS ARE SO HORRIBLE THESE DAYS LETS FIND A WAY TO FIGHT BULLYING because while that was definitely a problem I don't see it as nearly as big of a problem as the former.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I assume this was directed at the OP but if it was directed at me, I didn't comment on the lack of LGBT bullying in the article because mostly everyone else already did.

Sorry, it was. Most of it was actually, only the first bit was directed at you... I'll space better next time.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If a person kill themselves over schoolyard bullying. That's a sign of ultimate weakness and cowardice. The selfishness is obvious because instead of trying to use the family for help (which the girl did and was successful at), they kill themselves, which to me waves off the family as though they're not even there, followed by potential whining that nobody was there for them. I'm sorry but if one contemplates suicide at that young of an age, I question how they'll manage through the hardships of life.

See, this is my problem. Calling a ten year old a 'coward' or 'weak' is kind of redundant. I don't understand why you're pushing adult expecations on this kid.

Originally Posted by Chaazza

it may have been the best option that she had because she couldn't take it anymore

Sorry but saying the best option a ten year old has in the face of bullying is to off herself is kind of an irresponsible thing to say and a terrible attitude to have.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

[quote=Marguerite;760178]It's not really the point of whether she knew what she was doing or not. I agree, the fact she used a noose to hang herself shows she understood what exactly it was that she was doing. It doesn't mean that she could fully process what exactly it meant in the long term and what the consequences would be. I don't mean she didn't understand she would die... I just mean that ten year olds are illogical and irrational by nature. Did she weigh up what it would mean for her family and decide to put her self first? Maybe, maybe not. Even if she did it's not something at least I as a ten year old could have fully comprehended.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

All I'm saying is that it's fine to take that line with adults (suicide is selfish and you're purposely hurting your family if you do it) but to take the same line with children is probably not worth it because ten year olds are, well, ten year olds. If a ten year old kicked me in the leg I would have a completely different reaction from if an adult kicked me because I know that ten year olds are as I said, illogical, irrational... and kind of dumb by adult standards.

All people regardless of age are illogical and irrational to varying degrees. A 10 year old can intentionally kick you in the leg in order to hurt you and supposing they succeed, you wouldn't react? It's not a terribly complex thought, even as simple as, "kick girl's leg, girl say ouch, I say yay". Granted I'm not going to react violently to a 10 year old kicking my leg, unless it's a 6 ft 3 freakishly strong and violent 10 year old but they don't make them like that very often.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Also, at ten I thought about suicide a lot. And I also thought about how my family and friends would feel if I killed myself. That was usually the point, to kill myself and imagine how everyone would react if I did. It was usually a reaction to you don't care/you did this/why do you act like.... you would feel bad if I died. And while I thought about intentionally causing pain like that to my friends and family, I loved them and if I could have fully understood the pain that losing a child or childhood friend would have caused them I wouldn't have even thought about it. But ten year olds don't think like that.

If 10 years olds don't think like that, then why did you think like that at 10 years old?

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Even if she did it's not something at least I as a ten year old could have fully comprehended.

But you just said you could comprehend it... .

Originally Posted by Marguerite

This was a girl who went to school, had friends, had family, probably had after school activities and what not... so how did nobody realise (or why did nobody care) that this was a very sick little girl and get her some help? Particularly with regards to the school which she spent a couple of hours a day with different adults who are trained to notice these things.

Some people can be very effective at hiding their emotions but I cant imagine your average 10 year old doing that, hell some adults cant. In some ways, it is unfortunate her behaviour wasn't spotted earlier but there's only so much information a short article can give, so it's entirely possible someone (i.e. a teacher) did notice and tried to help. When something so drastic happens, people want to save face, so they're not going to admit a teacher(s) tried to help because that implies other teachers who interacted with the girl were dumber than a door and may even lead to asking why the teachers who were aware did not try to do more. I think by stating everyone was equally unaware, it takes blame off of their shoulders and allows one to accuse the girl of hiding her emotions too much. Chances are it's not true, or at least I hope it isn't for that school.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

See, this is my problem. Calling a ten year old a 'coward' or 'weak' is kind of redundant. I don't understand why you're pushing adult expecations on this kid.

So you don't think the 10 year old was a coward for backing out of life over schoolyard bullying?

[Cosmo]

If a 10 year old can't work out that by hanging yourself you will die, then that 10 year old has the intelligence of a frog.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If 10 years olds don't think like that, then why did you think like that at 10 years old?

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

But you just said you could comprehend it... .

I mean to say that I understood it from a shallow point of view, e.g, if I kill myself my mother will be sad. My thought process was 'If I die it'll show them!'

When I look at this story I think about how the mother must feel. To lose a child must be one of the hardest things a person can go through. You'd never be the same person. It would be in your mind everyday. To know that your child killed themselves would likely be even worse because it would make you feel so horrible and so absolutely inadequate.

In my mind it was instantaneous. I thought about the short term affects. I thought about how my mum would react if she saw my body and thought she'd think, 'Oh God! If only I'd done X or hadn't done Y!'

I certainly didn't think about it to the extent of ruining someone's life or inflicting that much permanent, heart wrenching pain on someone.

I tried to commit suicide a few times from the ages of 14-16. I realise when someone says a 'few times' it begins to sound like BS (not so much lying but that I didn't *really* want to go through with it). I guess that's true to a certain extent but I'd say there were definitely a couple of times when I was totally commited, like the toaster in the bath incident or the two times I winded up in hospital for ODing on Valium. This may all sound irrelevent but my point is this: I understood the gravity of the situation then. I understood what I was doing to my family and what I would have done if I'd died. It just wasn't a priority for me... I didn't really care all that much. Was I being selfish? Absolutely. But my point is that as you get older these things become clearer in your mind. At 10 you're too young to FULLY comprehend what something as heavey as suicide will mean. Most 10 year olds don't even think about suicide and if they do there is obviously something off there.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

All people regardless of age are illogical and irrational to varying degrees. A 10 year old can intentionally kick you in the leg in order to hurt you and supposing they succeed, you wouldn't react? It's not a terribly complex thought, even as simple as, "kick girl's leg, girl say ouch, I say yay". Granted I'm not going to react violently to a 10 year old kicking my leg, unless it's a 6 ft 3 freakishly strong and violent 10 year old but they don't make them like that very often.

I would react obviously. What I meant is that it wouldn't be like 'Hey, what the fuck do you think you're doing asshole!' it would just be 'Hey! That's not very nice. Where is your mother??'

If someone my age came up and violently kicked me I'd understand that it's different to a child doing it because children are just children. Saying that people are illogical and irrational at all ages is kind of a cop out if you ask me because you can't tell me you think 30 year olds or 20 year olds or even 15 year olds have the same mental capacity and ability of understanding as 10 year olds (IN GENERAL).

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

So you don't think the 10 year old was a coward for backing out of life over schoolyard bullying?

Of course not. We don't expect our ten year olds to be strong. Cowardice is not something we usually apply to children, and if we're going with your argument of judging everyone the same regardless of age then all ten year olds are basically cowards.

Originally Posted by Cosmo

If a 10 year old can't work out that by hanging yourself you will die, then that 10 year old has the intelligence of a frog.

I think you're missing the point.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

If a 10 year old can't work out that by hanging yourself you will die, then that 10 year old has the intelligence of a frog.

You really are missing the point. Knowledge of the actual act of ending their life isn't what was being questioned; it was knowledge of the gravity of the situation which was. Most kids have a very limited understanding of death and its consequences, and I say this from personal experience, and so I can fully see how it would only be the short-term, shallow consequences that Marguerite mentioned that would come to mind.

[Cosmo]

I can only say what I've experienced, and when I was 10 I had a pretty firm grasp on the idea of death and its consequences. That said I'm far more mature than most my age, so I suppose I'm more of an exception than a rule.

[BDF]

I smell several rats here:

1. Either I'm blind or there's no mention in the article of LGBT orientated bullying
2. If it is LGBT orientated bullying, then I find it very strange that aged 10 she would have identified herself as a lesbian, especially that the article says: "We have to do something with this, we cannot let her life be in vain, this is an opening to help others. This was not an isolated incident, it has been going on for years". "Years", being plural, I'd assume at least two, so going by facts stated she could have been as young as 8 when she identified herself as a lesbian (that's assuming she was bullied by straight kids, which would be the norm).
3. I find it strange that she would suicide so spontaneously. I'd guess there was something more to it than just bullying on its own. Perhaps she was somewhat mentally unstable... I mean, God only knows. I remember a movie were a 15 year old girl would tie a nose round her neck and stand on a chair alone in a room because she had some kind of fucked up fetish. It was not a porn movie (lol), one of those Poltergeist/Exorcist/Paranormal Activity type of movies. I'm just saying... it could even have been an accident. Nobody knows.

All that aside, it's never good news when someone kills themselves for whatever reason.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

If a 10 year old can't work out that by hanging yourself you will die, then that 10 year old has the intelligence of a frog.

I just started imaging a kid trying to hang itself and asking their pet frog what would happen, and the frog said, "try it and find out you worthless shit" but the kid didn't know how to tie the noose, so it asked the frog who said, "sure I'll show ya, here watch me tie my noose" LOL

Originally Posted by Marguerite

When I look at this story I think about how the mother must feel. To lose a child must be one of the hardest things a person can go through. You'd never be the same person. It would be in your mind everyday. To know that your child killed themselves would likely be even worse because it would make you feel so horrible and so absolutely inadequate.

Agreed, it's why I feel sympathy for the family.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

In my mind it was instantaneous. I thought about the short term affects. I thought about how my mum would react if she saw my body and thought she'd think, 'Oh God! If only I'd done X or hadn't done Y!'

I certainly didn't think about it to the extent of ruining someone's life or inflicting that much permanent, heart wrenching pain on someone.

So you were trying to teach your mother a lesson through self-sacrifice?

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I tried to commit suicide a few times from the ages of 14-16. I realise when someone says a 'few times' it begins to sound like BS (not so much lying but that I didn't *really* want to go through with it). I guess that's true to a certain extent but I'd say there were definitely a couple of times when I was totally commited, like the toaster in the bath incident or the two times I winded up in hospital for ODing on Valium. This may all sound irrelevent but my point is this: I understood the gravity of the situation then. I understood what I was doing to my family and what I would have done if I'd died. It just wasn't a priority for me... I didn't really care all that much. Was I being selfish? Absolutely. But my point is that as you get older these things become clearer in your mind.

I've never understood why someone, especially when they are older, would want to commit suicide. Everyone has gone through rough patches in their life. For example, before I was 16 years old, I saw half a dozen people killed before my eyes (either they died on the spot or were brutally mangled and died elsewhere pretty). I went with my father to have my grandmother taken off life-support and watched her face. To tell the truth, when we visited her previously she was in such shit shape when I looked into her eyes it was hard to tell if she were alive or dead, so when she finally died it was rather anti-climatic. The first thing that came to mind was how close the hospital was to that amazing fast-food restaurant, so we went there and I slept in the car on the way home quieter than a stuffed dog.

Anyway, you gave some personal babble so I gave some personal babble but my question still stands, what made you want to kill yourself when you took a shower with a toaster or got pill-happy?

Originally Posted by Marguerite

At 10 you're too young to FULLY comprehend what something as heavey as suicide will mean. Most 10 year olds don't even think about suicide and if they do there is obviously something off there.

True, most 10 year olds don't think about suicide. I haven't met a single one that did although I haven't met a whole lot so that's not saying much on my part.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I would react obviously. What I meant is that it wouldn't be like 'Hey, what the fuck do you think you're doing asshole!' it would just be 'Hey! That's not very nice. Where is your mother??'

Hehe, I'd probably say the second response as well.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

If someone my age came up and violently kicked me I'd understand that it's different to a child doing it because children are just children. Saying that people are illogical and irrational at all ages is kind of a cop out if you ask me because you can't tell me you think 30 year olds or 20 year olds or even 15 year olds have the same mental capacity and ability of understanding as 10 year olds (IN GENERAL).

I never said they had the same mental capacity or ability, I said people are all illogical and irrational to varying degrees.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

The article said she told her mother who listened and the next day the girl killed herself, so it's obvious to me her mother was an alternate option that could have helped. However, pretending the mother didn't help, since when is ending your life the "best option"? Your reasoning glamorizes suicide because you view nothing wrong with it. If a person kill themselves over schoolyard bullying. That's a sign of ultimate weakness and cowardice. The selfishness is obvious because instead of trying to use the family for help (which the girl did and was successful at), they kill themselves, which to me waves off the family as though they're not even there, followed by potential whining that nobody was there for them. I'm sorry but if one contemplates suicide at that young of an age, I question how they'll manage through the hardships of life.

Again though, my sympathies go out to the family, it's got to be hard dealing with the aftermath of their suicidal child. Some families would view suicide as bringing shame onto the family name, so families have to cope with that also.

What I was saying, was that even though her mother was going to help her and hopefully make things better, 10 year olds usually don't look at the long term effects. She talked to her mother one day, and then the next day she had to go to school again before her mom had done anything to fix it. When she got home from school that day upset again, being an illogical 10 year old, her first thought isn't going to be "things will be better in a few days when my mom fixes it", her first thoughts were probably "things are so bad right now, I can't take it any more". I'm just trying to think how I thought at her age, and I didn't think very logically or rationally.

And I don't know if you were talking to me or to the other person you quoted when you said that I/they were "glamorizing suicide", but I absolutely wasn't. I said that it is wrong no matter what the situation or age is, but just that I can imagine what may have been going through her head.

[Marguerite]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I've been in the middle of exams. I'll address the personal babble first with more personal babble.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I've never understood why someone, especially when they are older, would want to commit suicide. Everyone has gone through rough patches in their life. For example, before I was 16 years old, I saw half a dozen people killed before my eyes (either they died on the spot or were brutally mangled and died elsewhere pretty). I went with my father to have my grandmother taken off life-support and watched her face. To tell the truth, when we visited her previously she was in such shit shape when I looked into her eyes it was hard to tell if she were alive or dead, so when she finally died it was rather anti-climatic. The first thing that came to mind was how close the hospital was to that amazing fast-food restaurant, so we went there and I slept in the car on the way home quieter than a stuffed dog.

Anyway, you gave some personal babble so I gave some personal babble but my question still stands, what made you want to kill yourself when you took a shower with a toaster or got pill-happy?

Well first I think you're making the mistake of thinking suicide is a result of evaluating your life and then weighing up the pros and cons to see if life is worth living. The first thing is nobody (in my experience, feel free to correct me if you think otherwise) is that rational when trying to kill themselves, unless maybe their reason is something like they don't have long to live (but that's a whooole different argument). Suicide is irrational by nature and which is why I'm on the fence about whether or not it's selfish. I wouldn't defend it like I'm sure some other people who have been suicidal would but I'm not sure you can critisize someone of not thinking about others or about their family when they decide to off themselves because that would require foresight and logic which probably aren't the strong points of someone who's going to kill themselves. Not saying they don't or can't think about it (I did when I was older) but your rational thought process is kind of messed up in that position. I think that's probably magnified 100x when you're ten years old because 10 year olds are lacking in the rational thought in general.

The second thing is that my life was never really that bad to warrant killing myself. I certainly never went through anything you described (other than one thing which I'll talk about in a second). It wasn't about the things that happened to me, it was just about how I felt. I just felt so hopeless all the time, like I didn't have a future so there was no point trying to live. I'm actually pretty good in bad situations. The one you described with your grandmother resonates with me because my grandfather died earlier this year after a long and drawn out illness. I was there when he died, and everyone was so sad. I didn't cry, instead I kind of contemplated what people would think of me if they realised I wasn't crying. I also took it upon myself to look out for everyone else and made sure they were okay. The only time I cried was at his funeral when my nephew got up and said he didn't want our grandfather to die, because I felt sad for my nephew, not because I missed my grandfather (although I did). I've always been like that. In the sucky situations I'm strong. It's the moments inbetween that really get me. I remember last year my mum OD'd and left the house saying she was going to kill herself and my sister called the police. My sister cried so much but I didn't even really blink. Maybe that was because I was used to it since it was no where near the first time it'd happened. Truth be told if I hadn't had grown up with my mum trying to kill herself all the time and being so depressed I probably wouldn't have done it myself, because it seemed so normal to me. That's only speculation though.

Also this detail might be irrelevent but it was a radio, not a toaster. Not sure why I said toaster, I think I've been watching too many horror movies. You know, suprisingly enough it doesn't do anything like in the movies . Who would have thought?

Also sorry for dedicating a novel to my personal BS.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

So you were trying to teach your mother a lesson through self-sacrifice?

Kind of I guess but it wasn't as simple as that. Suicide (or the thought of it) wasn't just a tool to get what I want or punish people, I was genuinely depressed. But yes, I did think about killing myself to teach my mother a lesson to an extent which I realise now is a horrible thing to say. But ten year olds are stupid.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I never said they had the same mental capacity or ability, I said people are all illogical and irrational to varying degrees.

I know what you said, I just think that responding 'everyone is illogical irrational' to the statement that ten year olds are illogical and irrational by nature while true is downplaying how much more illogical and irrational children are compared to adults.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

The second thing is that my life was never really that bad to warrant killing myself. I certainly never went through anything you described (other than one thing which I'll talk about in a second). It wasn't about the things that happened to me, it was just about how I felt. I just felt so hopeless all the time, like I didn't have a future so there was no point trying to live. I'm actually pretty good in bad situations.

I've always viewed, probably from some family members, when shit goes down, it's interesting and I like interesting. So if I get stuck in a bad position, I may feel bad about it but that feeling is muted by my want for something interesting and in an odd way, to explore that bad situation. A recent example is last year I was out of university for about a month because I was too ill to come to class. I had a fever around 38C/100F but for several days, it went to 40C/104F, with the highest being 42.5C/108.5F to just shy of 43C/109F for a few days. I'm not sure what exactly happened because I couldn't remember large segments of time, much less walk, in fact the only parts I remember were being given ice packs or ice bath while in the hospital. When it was lower and I was puking my guts out (couldn't even hold down water I drank), it sucked donkey dick but at the same time, I thought it was pretty interesting because it didn't happen to me before and it was a fairly exciting experience. The doctors kept thinking it was weird because I kept asking what they were doing to learn about it.
I didn't reject my parents' sympathy but they could not provide any more help since they're not doctors so I wanted them out of the way for the time being, although afterward we all went home as a big happy family.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

The one you described with your grandmother resonates with me because my grandfather died earlier this year after a long and drawn out illness.

My grandmother's funeral was pretty different for me, it was probably the best one I went to. It was a wake so after one of my older cousins and I said our good-byes to her, we went downstairs and started playing cards, laughing and joking around. That didn't go so well with other family members but since our family is huge and many flew in from elsewhere, I didn't even know their names so I thought they were a stranger who was grieving about someone else. We went back upstairs, stood around for a bit and started whispering and laughing to each other. After talking with family members who I met for the first time that day, I realized my cousin wasn't there so after wondering around, I found him flirting with one of the embalmers. I felt jealous but she had an assistant, so by the time the funeral was over, my cousin and I went partying (we had regular clothes in the car because we were planning on doing something fun anyway). A few other people joined us so overall, it was an amazing funeral.

The only other funeral I was at for a family member who had a long drawn out illness was one of my uncles. I didn't want to go because when he was alive, I couldn't stand being around him, many times I wanted to drive my fist through his head and if I didn't like him in life, there's no point seeing him in death. The only good thing about him was he was wealthy and whenever it came to presents, he knew my favourite gift (everyone in my family does), and he often would give me money for something after I gave a bullshit story. Eventually I went simply because it was either that or mundane school work. On the other hand, several of my cousins, including the one mentioned above were there, so we left early (they said their good-byes, I didn't).

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Also this detail might be irrelevent but it was a radio, not a toaster. Not sure why I said toaster, I think I've been watching too many horror movies. You know, suprisingly enough it doesn't do anything like in the movies . Who would have thought?

That's understandable, you wanted some music with your shower but the radio fell and that was that.

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I know what you said, I just think that responding 'everyone is illogical irrational' to the statement that ten year olds are illogical and irrational by nature while true is downplaying how much more illogical and irrational children are compared to adults.

We're saying the same thing so this part has boiled down to mere semantics for me.

[Rainbow Dash]

Jesus :| Poor kid :/ R.I.P. sweetie <333

[BruceLeeDemarcus]

That story is really sad! Why? Why does it always end like this?

[Guile]

Originally Posted by BruceLeeDemarcus

That story is really sad! Why? Why does it always end like this?

Because it's more fun to read than "kid does not get bullied."