Talking about religion

[MsNobleEleanor]

This is all my own opinion on the topic and question

Personally I wouldn't allow myself to sit down with a different religion than I am. Why? Why should I let another religion pour their own beliefs on me when I clearly know what I believe and will follow it. I'm not against other religions I'm strong in my beliefs and wouldn't want another person to tell me otherwise. If I sat down with another religion and listen, they will eventually try to get you to come into their religion.

I'm educated on this area to a certain area but I know what I believe is my Faith that I chose. I respect my religion and I don't need someone else telling me otherwise. That's basically my opinion and answer.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Melwirth

It hurts to know that people actually believe that God would send people to Hell because they did not have the opportunity to accept the Gospel and learn about Christ.

Again, the reason He's sending them to hell is because they have sin. If He was going to do what was fair, it would have just stopped there and every single one of us would have gone to hell full of sin. He could have just done that and He still would have been perfect and good and amazing, because that's what we all deserved. But, since He loves us and wanted us to live forever with Him, He chose to send Jesus to take our punishment and give a second chance to all who will believe.


Also, again, everybody has the oppertunity to accept Him. The bible says that no man has an excuse to not believe in His existance, because there is proof all around them (if you don't believe that much, you're going to have to argue with God, not me- because that's written in Romans 1:18-20). So, every human did have a chance to believe in His existance. And, the bible says that all who seek will find (Matthew 7:7)- so if they took the fact that He existed and chose to seek Him, He would have showed them the truth and they would have had the chance to be saved. Everyone had the chance to accept Jesus, even if someone hasn't directly preached to them yet. If you disagree with that, you'll have to talk to God about that part, because I didn't write the bible...and I think that's all I know on the subject anyways, so I don't really have anything else to add. I can try though if you have any other questions.

My pastor actually told a really cool story once that reminds me of that. I can't remember where he heard it or who the story was about, but it's a true story. There was this guy who lived in a country in the middle of nowhere where nobody had even heard of the possible existance of a God. This man looked around him and realized that there HAD to be a creator of the world, because it was too amazing for there not to be. He wanted to know what or who this higher power was. He basically shouted/prayed (though he didn't know it was called praying) to God (though he didn't know He was called God) and said that he wanted to know who/what this higher power was. He was truly seeking and willing to know whatever the truth was. That night, he had a dream saying a man with a black book would tell him the truth. Not long later, a missionary came to his village (which had never happened before). He saw the missionary carrying a black book (a bible)! He ran up to him and begged him saying "Tell me the truth!!!". The missionary told him about God and Jesus, and the man got saved!!! This is proof that anyone can accept Jesus. He came to the conclusion about God on his own without any human's help, and then asked to know the truth with a willing heart, and God told him- just like the bible says!

Originally Posted by Melwirth

if they dont accept Christ that will send them to Hell, it's sinning that does which im guessing you meant to say not repenting for our sins will send us to hell, because after all we all sin so we all must repent. But if we need to repent of our sins to "save our soul" as you say, wouldnt accepting Christ need to be apart of the repentance process? He did atone for our sins correct? So yes it is about accepting Christ isn't it?

Oh, I didn't mean to say that we don't have to accept Christ! We absolutely do! Sorry, that was probably bad wording on my part. I just meant that it's not "You didn't accept Jesus so He's sending you to hell!", it's "You sinned, so He's sending you to hell because that's fair. If you would have found Jesus, you would have gotten more than fair." Does that make more sense?

Originally Posted by Melwirth

Did you know that there is time spent in a place between death and the Resurrection and judgment? Time in a place called the Spirit World but it is divided into paradise and spirit prison....spirit prison isnt as bad as it sounds.....its a place for those who didn't have the opportunity to learn to learn and to repent if they so choose there are scriptures that talk about it 1Peter 3:19 which says "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison:" I suggest reading the rest of those verses too. and 1Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they may be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." I suggest you read all of Chapter 4 it explains it all. But there it is, there is the answer....they will have the opportunity to learn. so bottom line....we try and reach those we can and because we are imperfect we cannot reach everyone so God has made a way to save them too.....doesnt that sound more like God?

In the Old Testament, there was a place called Sheol (which is the original word for the paradise/spirit prison that you mentioned), because since Jesus hadn't died to save people yet, nobody could get to Heaven. Everyone went to Sheol. When Jesus died, He went to Sheol and gave them all the chance to accept Him because He had just died for them. That has nothing to do with today. Sheol was a holding place until Jesus made the way for them to get to Heaven. When He died, He went there and told them what had happened, and many of them were saved. The rest went to hell.

[Coffee.]

I'm an atheist, and I love having discussions about religion as long as they're not trying to convert me. When it starts leaning in that direction, I jump out of the conversation pretty quick. I do not appreciate that in the least bit and my respect is immediately lost for you if you cannot respect my beliefs enough to leave them be. I can change my beliefs with the information I receive without you using threats that my soul will burn, or whatever. If I don't believe in hell, it's not much of a threat, it's just annoying.

However, a good half of my friends are Christian, and respect me for my beliefs. In these cases, I love hearing about their churchgroups, their beliefs and everything else just as they like to listen to my beliefs, my organizations, etc.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Alergnon

This is all my own opinion on the topic and question

Personally I wouldn't allow myself to sit down with a different religion than I am. Why? Why should I let another religion pour their own beliefs on me when I clearly know what I believe and will follow it. I'm not against other religions I'm strong in my beliefs and wouldn't want another person to tell me otherwise. If I sat down with another religion and listen, they will eventually try to get you to come into their religion.

I'm educated on this area to a certain area but I know what I believe is my Faith that I chose. I respect my religion and I don't need someone else telling me otherwise. That's basically my opinion and answer.

You mentioned that you wouldn't sit down with a person of a different religion, however, you focused exclusively on the scenario where they tell you about their religion. Would you sit down with a person of a different religion if they asked you to tell them about what you believe?

[LittleMissOneBigMess]

Considering my best friend of almost 5 years is a Jehovahs witness ( not extremist) and I was an atheist and now am developing an interest with becoming a Wiccan, I love to discuss religion with people as long as they are not shoving their religion down my throat, I would never try to convert someone to what I believe so I want the same respect from someone else. I think even though I know what I believe and am strong in that I still like to discuss with other people, someone elses religion shouldnt threaten yours and if it does maybe your not as into your religion as you say you are.

[Melwirth]

Originally Posted by TakeTheLeap

I absolutely would sit down with people with faiths that differ from me. I'm Catholic, so I've heard of the, "You're not Christian" bullshit people try to pull on me (my brother's Christian mother-in-law being a prime example). Rather than people accusing me, I would rather them just ask to clarify what they don't understand (or what they think they understand, but are only getting one part of it). I will explain my faith to anyone who asks to the best of my ability.
By the same token, I want to understand other religions. I would love to sit down with someone who practices Islam, for example, to get a better understanding of their religion since I know the religious extremists (read: terrorists) can't speak for the entire faith. I think I could be open-minded to what they believe as long as they don't try to convert me. I want to understand, but I don't want to change my faith. But, yes, I would love to be educated about other faiths in more than just the overview I got in my world history class in 9th grade. I want to know how people of other faiths think, what their traditions are, etc. You can get information from textbooks, but why not go straight to the heart of the faith by talking to those who practice it?

You are very right my friend I agree with you. I get the same persecution about not being a Christian, Mormons are very much Christian. A Christian is someone who believes and follows Christ. I have always though Catholics were Christian too.

[Melwirth]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Again, the reason He's sending them to hell is because they have sin. If He was going to do what was fair, it would have just stopped there and every single one of us would have gone to hell full of sin. He could have just done that and He still would have been perfect and good and amazing, because that's what we all deserved. But, since He loves us and wanted us to live forever with Him, He chose to send Jesus to take our punishment and give a second chance to all who will believe.


Also, again, everybody has the oppertunity to accept Him. The bible says that no man has an excuse to not believe in His existance, because there is proof all around them (if you don't believe that much, you're going to have to argue with God, not me- because that's written in Romans 1:18-20). So, every human did have a chance to believe in His existance. And, the bible says that all who seek will find (Matthew 7:7)- so if they took the fact that He existed and chose to seek Him, He would have showed them the truth and they would have had the chance to be saved. Everyone had the chance to accept Jesus, even if someone hasn't directly preached to them yet. If you disagree with that, you'll have to talk to God about that part, because I didn't write the bible...and I think that's all I know on the subject anyways, so I don't really have anything else to add. I can try though if you have any other questions.

My pastor actually told a really cool story once that reminds me of that. I can't remember where he heard it or who the story was about, but it's a true story. There was this guy who lived in a country in the middle of nowhere where nobody had even heard of the possible existance of a God. This man looked around him and realized that there HAD to be a creator of the world, because it was too amazing for there not to be. He wanted to know what or who this higher power was. He basically shouted/prayed (though he didn't know it was called praying) to God (though he didn't know He was called God) and said that he wanted to know who/what this higher power was. He was truly seeking and willing to know whatever the truth was. That night, he had a dream saying a man with a black book would tell him the truth. Not long later, a missionary came to his village (which had never happened before). He saw the missionary carrying a black book (a bible)! He ran up to him and begged him saying "Tell me the truth!!!". The missionary told him about God and Jesus, and the man got saved!!! This is proof that anyone can accept Jesus. He came to the conclusion about God on his own without any human's help, and then asked to know the truth with a willing heart, and God told him- just like the bible says!



Oh, I didn't mean to say that we don't have to accept Christ! We absolutely do! Sorry, that was probably bad wording on my part. I just meant that it's not "You didn't accept Jesus so He's sending you to hell!", it's "You sinned, so He's sending you to hell because that's fair. If you would have found Jesus, you would have gotten more than fair." Does that make more sense?



In the Old Testament, there was a place called Sheol (which is the original word for the paradise/spirit prison that you mentioned), because since Jesus hadn't died to save people yet, nobody could get to Heaven. Everyone went to Sheol. When Jesus died, He went to Sheol and gave them all the chance to accept Him because He had just died for them. That has nothing to do with today. Sheol was a holding place until Jesus made the way for them to get to Heaven. When He died, He went there and told them what had happened, and many of them were saved. The rest went to hell.

Yes, everyone will have the chance to be saved (people arent actually "saved" in this life tho, they have gained salvation, which is different, salvation is the process of being saved.....no one is saved yet, not you or I)....but for some it will not happen in this life, what about Children who have reached the age accountability but didnt have parents who teach them and die? They werent given the opportunity in this life but they will in the spirit world. And they will need baptism just like the rest of us....thats when baptisms for the dead comes in. It does talk about that in the bible as well. If we are to supposed to have baptisms for the dead then why would they not have the opportunity to learn and accept the gospel in the spirit world. No body is in Heaven or Hell yet (not that Hell actually exists but I dont wanna get into that right now PM if you wanna know about that but read 1Corinthians ch15 first ps all of my scripture references are from the King James version of the Bible ) Everyone is in the spirit world until the second coming. And those scriptures that you are talking about, yes the wold we be preached to, missionary efforts will expand but there will be those who will slip through the cracks. I highly suggest you reading 1Corinthians ch15, I could also give you scripture references to The Book of Mormon as well but I doubt you would want anything to do with that.....so thats why I have just stuck to the Bible.

[Tigereyes]

I'm Catholic and I'm entirely open to having conversations about religion with people of other religions as long as they don't want to fight about it or try to force me to convert. Lots of my friends follow different religions: Hinduism, Mormonism and other denominations of Christianity, Atheist even. I usually don't comment on anything until I know the other people's reason for discussing it. But I find the other religions interesting, and I often try to see it from their side even though I don't believe in it.

[Melwirth]

Originally Posted by Tigereyes

I'm Catholic and I'm entirely open to having conversations about religion with people of other religions as long as they don't want to fight about it or try to force me to convert. Lots of my friends follow different religions: Hinduism, Mormonism and other denominations of Christianity, Atheist even. I usually don't comment on anything until I know the other people's reason for discussing it. But I find the other religions interesting, and I often try to see it from their side even though I don't believe in it.

I also find learning about other religions interesting and what I have found is that sometimes you find you have a lot more in common then originally thought which can bring us closer together as the human race
One thing I cannot stand is churches that tell their congregations not to talk to or associate with other religions.....It think that is out of fear that they will actually go out and find the real truth....but thats just me.

[Brandon]

I'm an Agnostic Theist which I consider to be a very open-minded perspective. I believe that there is some kind of super natural, but I believe that there's no way of knowing. A lot of the religion debates have been between Catholics/Christians vs. Atheists. Typically, I don't see arguments between religions. I tend to stay away from Atheist vs. Christian "discussions," because they all have pretty much ended the same way:

1. Christian presents valid argument from quoting the Bible
2. Atheist presents valid argument, mentions something about science, and the fact that you can't SEE a supernatural being.
3. Christian mentions belief and not necessarily needing to have any facts.
4. Both of them start throwing out random shit escalating into an argument. "How can you believe in God if you can't see him?" "This is what's wrong with religion...shoving their opinions down people's throats..." "Christians are murderers...close-minded...can't present a valid argument on the belief of the existence of God..." Then once the Christian ends the discussion through frustration, the Atheist pretty much wins because

a) no one has evidence to prove God exists, but only evidence to prove that you can't disprove the existence of God. Even still, that argument will continue on and on until the Atheist is convinced that the Christian is a moron, possessed by the Devil, etc.
b) the very fact that a Christian would first end the discussion through frustration is proving a point (when it really doesn't) that religions have no credible evidence why they believe that the religion is true.

Atheists 300,000,000,000 and counting points against Christians 0 points while Christianity has a somewhat to do with a little something something called faith.

I think the discussions are effectively useless. It's really a conversation on the battle of wits. An Atheist might say "well good sir, do you know about NimoNomoKanata's perspective on religion? I very much like to hear your opinion on the matter." "Well, I think NimoNomoKanata's viewpoints are very similar to HoochiTomamama." And very rarely do people know about different perspectives and shit at an early age because...let's face it...up until you got a career and shit, you got other shit to learn...why the fuck would I want to spend time looking up different perspectives on the universe and shit. Maybe when I'm 60, retired, and have the time to look up every religious book known to man along with every perspective on life along with counterarguments on anti-theisms, monotheisms, polytheisms, and whatnot. You can sure as hell bet that I'll probably be doing that when I'm 60+ years old, because we are never going to find out whether God exists, who is right who is wrong, because we have only discovered a fraction of the truth. I only got 100 years, so none of us are going to see the end. Am I willing to have a discussion with anyone about religion? Not really...not because I'm close-minded, but because I know nothing about it. All I know is that I believe in God, and that's really all that fucking matters.

[MindBodySpirit]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I'm an Agnostic Theist which I consider to be a very open-minded perspective. I believe that there is some kind of super natural, but I believe that there's no way of knowing. A lot of the religion debates have been between Catholics/Christians vs. Atheists. Typically, I don't see arguments between religions. I tend to stay away from Atheist vs. Christian "discussions," because they all have pretty much ended the same way:

There are 2 major reasons you see arguments most often between christians and atheists:
-1) In North America and UK, Christianity is the most common religion.
-2) Because of reason 1, Christianity has the largest effect on us as a society, out of any religion.

Originally Posted by Brandon

1. Christian presents valid argument from quoting the Bible

>Quote from bible to prove some point in the bible.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. It's a logical fallacy unless you're just trying to prove that "It says this in the bible."

Originally Posted by Brandon

2. Atheist presents valid argument, mentions something about science, and the fact that you can't SEE a supernatural being.

WELL, if the only reason people didn't believe in god is because we can't physically see him, I'm sure there would be far less atheists. We can't measure god in any way. There's no proof in the physical universe that a god exists. In fact, there's evidence of the contrary if we go by the claims made by the religions I know a thing or two about.

Originally Posted by Brandon

3. Christian mentions belief and not necessarily needing to have any facts.

Sure, we don't need facts to have a belief. However, unless there is at least one shred of evidence for an extraordinary claim, why should I believe it? Faith? Faith is just accepting things without evidence. Why would I have faith in something, when the faith is blind?

Originally Posted by Brandon

4. Both of them start throwing out random shit escalating into an argument. "How can you believe in God if you can't see him?"

Wow. Have you actually heard people use that in an argument? I can't see oxygen, but I'm fairly certain it exists. Really, I think this is an unfair representation of an atheist's argument.

Originally Posted by Brandon

can't present a valid argument on the belief of the existence of God...

Well, of course a sceptic is going to dismiss claims about god if there is a lack of evidence.

[quote=Brandon;950467]Then once the Christian ends the discussion through frustration, the Atheist pretty much wins because

a) no one has evidence to prove God exists[/QUOTE}

As the person making the positive claim, it's their burden to prove that point. You can't shift the burden of proof by saying, "You can't prove he doesn't exist." That's not how things work.

Originally Posted by Brandon

but only evidence to prove that you can't disprove the existence of God. Even still, that argument will continue on and on until the Atheist is convinced that the Christian is a moron, possessed by the Devil, etc.

First part: Shifting the burden of proof.
Second part: An atheist wouldn't think that a theist is possessed by the devil. An atheist probably wouldn't believe in the devil, since the devil is a type of deity.

Originally Posted by Brandon

b) the very fact that a Christian would first end the discussion through frustration is proving a point (when it really doesn't) that religions have no credible evidence why they believe that the religion is true.

No, the fact that a person presents no credible evidence is proof that the person has no credible evidence. If a theist presents a claim that is credible, I'll listen to it.

Originally Posted by Brandon

Atheists 300,000,000,000 and counting points against Christians 0 points while Christianity has a somewhat to do with a little something something called faith.

Faith, by definition is blind. It doesn't prove anything. Nor do personal experiences. What we experience to be true is often false.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I think the discussions are effectively useless.

While I respect your opinion on this, I think I'll have to disagree. I think these discussions are very important, because it's important to spread the truth. If you think that your belief is truth, a discussion about your belief should only strengthen it, right? Also, doesn't it matter to YOU that what you believe is true?

Originally Posted by Brandon

It's really a conversation on the battle of wits.

Yes,a lot of it is based on wits. However, another large part of it is what information or evidence actually exists.

Originally Posted by Brandon

And very rarely do people know about different perspectives and shit at an early age because...let's face it...up until you got a career and shit, you got other shit to learn...why the fuck would I want to spend time looking up different perspectives on the universe and shit.

If you have other shit to learn than the perspectives of different people, then children should not be indoctrinated into a religion at such a young age. Yes, it goes both ways. Yes, it IS important. It's important to provide a child with as many viewpoints as possible, and educate the child on the universe. That's what Science, History, and English classes are for. Sure, you don't specifically have to look up other peoples' views on a certain point, but why wouldn't you try to find out about the universe? It's important to learn critical thinking in any way that we can.

Originally Posted by Brandon

You can sure as hell bet that I'll probably be doing that when I'm 60+ years old, because we are never going to find out whether God exists, who is right who is wrong, because we have only discovered a fraction of the truth.

Well, maybe we won't ever find out if there was an intelligent designer, but the more we learn, the easier it will be to dismiss some ridiculous claims.

Originally Posted by Brandon

Am I willing to have a discussion with anyone about religion? Not really...not because I'm close-minded, but because I know nothing about it.

Well, if you know nothing about a religion or religious view, and you're not willing to discuss it because you don't know about it, isn't that a little bit closed-minded? Maybe I'm reading into this wrong.

So, to the OP: Obviously I like discussing religion. The truth matters to me. So does equal representation in congress. Religion is interesting, and so is science. With so many religious things affecting me, I think it's very important to discuss. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state, people still get into power based on their religious affiliations and laws are still dismissed because the majority of a population shares some religious view. That isn't fair. So if you think I have no reason to discuss religion when I don't believe it, you're simply wrong. If for NO other reason, I discuss it because I like to.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit

There are 2 major reasons you see arguments most often between christians and atheists:
-1) In North America and UK, Christianity is the most common religion.
-2) Because of reason 1, Christianity has the largest effect on us as a society, out of any religion.

I'm aware of that. I'm not saying that the "discussions" are wrong when it's monotheism vs. anti-theism...I'm just saying...that's my observation.

Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit

>Quote from bible to prove some point in the bible.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. It's a logical fallacy unless you're just trying to prove that "It says this in the bible."

There's gotta be some credible evidence in the Bible to be used in a "discussion." To say that the Bible cannot be used as evidence is like saying is completely false -- it's just as ridiculous as saying everything in the Bible is true. I'm gonna have to disagree with you that it doesn't work -- I'm sure it can, but ask me the same question in 50 years and I'll be sure to give you a better response on the matter.

Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit

WELL, if the only reason people didn't believe in god is because we can't physically see him, I'm sure there would be far less atheists. We can't measure god in any way. There's no proof in the physical universe that a god exists. In fact, there's evidence of the contrary if we go by the claims made by the religions I know a thing or two about.

WELL...if you actually read and deciphered the message correctly, I listed science as a reason. Therefore, I did not say that the only reason why Atheists don't believe in God is because they can't see it -- of course, that's a reason, but when I include science in the equation...there's a whole lot more reasons.

Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit

Sure, we don't need facts to have a belief. However, unless there is at least one shred of evidence for an extraordinary claim, why should I believe it? Faith? Faith is just accepting things without evidence. Why would I have faith in something, when the faith is blind?

The real question is "why not?" If you're put into an environment that you are unfamiliar with and decide to find water, you're not going to really know where the water is. You can try to boil your own pee, what science has taught us, but we still need a different water supply at some point. If we're in the middle of nowhere and have to decide on which direction to take, sometimes we make a decision based on faith. I believe the water is north that way because I just gotta feeling. What else am I gonna do? Stand there and philosophize? To believe in something blindly is, I think, a real test of faith.

Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit

Wow. Have you actually heard people use that in an argument? I can't see oxygen, but I'm fairly certain it exists. Really, I think this is an unfair representation of an atheist's argument.

That's essentially all it is...just throw in some scientific terms, but it is what it is. You want shit that you can measure. When you're unable to measure it, you'll drop the baby and say "fuck it." There is no God. The Bible is fake, everything is fake. It's all a myth, yadda yadda yadda. I mean...it happens all the time.

Maybe I'll comment on the other stuff later. Need to take a nap. Peace.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Brandon

[font="Palatino Linotype"][color="Navy"][size="4"]
There's gotta be some credible evidence in the Bible to be used in a "discussion." To say that the Bible cannot be used as evidence is like saying is completely false -- it's just as ridiculous as saying everything in the Bible is true. I'm gonna have to disagree with you that it doesn't work -- I'm sure it can, but ask me the same question in 50 years and I'll be sure to give you a better response on the matter.

This depends on the nature of the discussion. If it's about Christianity or the Christian view of something, then the bible is suitable to use. When Christianity isn't relevant or when the subject matter isn't mentioned in the bible (i.e. a recent scientific discovery), then it's fairly useless to start pulling passages from the bible.

Originally Posted by Brandon

That's essentially all it is...just throw in some scientific terms, but it is what it is. You want shit that you can measure. When you're unable to measure it, you'll drop the baby and say "fuck it." There is no God. The Bible is fake, everything is fake. It's all a myth, yadda yadda yadda. I mean...it happens all the time.

The paradigm of science rests on being able to test and investigate. When something cant be measured, then it's time to figure out a way to measure it. After trying and finding that it cannot be done, science can only provide a scientific outcome. It's circular but my point is religion isn't scientific, so unless a certain aspect is being measured, no scientist can give a conclusion about a religion.

I've heard and seen many people explain one of the reasons they're atheistic is because science cannot provide sufficient proof. To me, that's a laugh because religion and science use completely different paradigms, it's impossible to give a conclusion about the other. For example, I can discredit a religion's view of how humans arrived with the scientific view of evolution and abiogenesis. The problem is none of that actually matters since at the end of the day, it doesn't address religion's paradigm. I do find such an argument to be appropriate when a person tries to provide a religious explanation for a scientific finding because to me, they entered the scientific paradigm, so religion reasons are moot.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Melwirth

Yes, everyone will have the chance to be saved (people arent actually "saved" in this life tho, they have gained salvation, which is different, salvation is the process of being saved.....no one is saved yet, not you or I)....but for some it will not happen in this life, what about Children who have reached the age accountability but didnt have parents who teach them and die? They werent given the opportunity in this life but they will in the spirit world. And they will need baptism just like the rest of us....thats when baptisms for the dead comes in. It does talk about that in the bible as well. If we are to supposed to have baptisms for the dead then why would they not have the opportunity to learn and accept the gospel in the spirit world. No body is in Heaven or Hell yet (not that Hell actually exists but I dont wanna get into that right now PM if you wanna know about that but read 1Corinthians ch15 first ps all of my scripture references are from the King James version of the Bible ) Everyone is in the spirit world until the second coming. And those scriptures that you are talking about, yes the wold we be preached to, missionary efforts will expand but there will be those who will slip through the cracks. I highly suggest you reading 1Corinthians ch15, I could also give you scripture references to The Book of Mormon as well but I doubt you would want anything to do with that.....so thats why I have just stuck to the Bible.

Where do you think the bible says that we aren't saved yet? The bible says that we ARE (not will be) new creations. The chapter that you posted, 1 Corinthains 15, actually talks about how He is already a new creature (verses 9 ad 10).

As far as what happens to children who were too young to understand, the bible does not say so I refuse to assume anything.

I need to study the context of 1 Corinthians 15 before I comment about what he is talking about reguarding "baptism for the dead". I don't know what was going on during that time to make him say that or what exactly they did, so I need to study the history first before I comment.

[Ennui.]

I don't really identify with any religion. I have my own set beliefs and that is fine, but sure I'd be willing to sit down with other people and discuss their religion with them. Sometimes it can be really interesting to see things from their sides. I could be open-minded and listen as long as they don't try to force their religion down my throat, are close-minded, or would get angry with my side. If we have a civil discussion, I'm all for it.

[Melwirth]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Where do you think the bible says that we aren't saved yet? The bible says that we ARE (not will be) new creations. The chapter that you posted, 1 Corinthains 15, actually talks about how He is already a new creature (verses 9 ad 10).

As far as what happens to children who were too young to understand, the bible does not say so I refuse to assume anything.

I need to study the context of 1 Corinthians 15 before I comment about what he is talking about reguarding "baptism for the dead". I don't know what was going on during that time to make him say that or what exactly they did, so I need to study the history first before I comment.

I cannot think of the exact scripture off the top of my head but there is one that says something along the lines of "It is by grace we are saved AFTER all we can do" If we are still here and alive and breathing we have done done everything we can do, we are not saved yet....If you look through the Bible you will see it talk about "salvation" rather then being saved. In this life we have been granted salvation...which is like I said before the process of being saved...ponder that for a min.
And go for it, study that chapter....but one thing I also suggest, pray about it, ask Heavenly Father to help you to understand, you believe in personal revelation right? Having the spirit be able to touch your heart and manifest truth unto you? Well I sure hope you do. Anyways what I am saying is ask in faith and with real intent what those verses and what that chapter means...He will help you.

[LoneWolfintheWind]

If you ask of my opinion I think most religions are only trying to control people to believe what the leader of the religion wants them to believe. I think it should be only a personal form of expression used for art (I love religious art).
I'm a LaVeyan Satanic Nihilist or basically a spiritual atheist and have studied pretty much all religions ended at Anti christian Satanism (really sick stuff). But I am mostly against religion in all ways except if it improves ones life and makes them want to make the best of it. Not waste their time/life focusing on trying to live to be something they aren't to get into an afterlife they don't know for sure will be there.

[Fineshrine]

Originally Posted by Melwirth

I was wondering what other people's view on discussing religion is. I mean if you are Catholic would you sit down and have civil conversation with a Hindu? or if you are Seventh Day Adventist would you talk to a Mormon? And when I say talk I mean listen to...try and see their side and stuff.
My view on this is WHY NOT!?!? It's not wrong to learn about other faiths and connect with others who are of a different faith then you. Knowledge is power and leads to wisdom. And these type of discussions are great for getting rid of stereotypes too.
Thoughts?

I'm an atheist, but if I was able to have a ration conversation with someone of another religion I'd be very interested! I've tried this with my friends before who believe in a God, and we both had good intentions to start out with, but it the end it didn't make us closer or help us see eachother points of views.

[Melwirth]

Originally Posted by Fineshrine

I'm an atheist, but if I was able to have a ration conversation with someone of another religion I'd be very interested! I've tried this with my friends before who believe in a God, and we both had good intentions to start out with, but it the end it didn't make us closer or help us see eachother points of views.

yea, it think it all depends on the maturity of the people you are talking to. I tend to get closer to people when we have both learned something new and are openminded about it all. But then again discussions with my own brother help me learn stuff but not about what he believes...more about my own beliefs....he tends to ask me questions that he thinks is going to make me question all my beliefs but then of course I think and ponder and study it out and of course I think in my head (oh hey that makes my testimony even stronger cuz I figured it out) but I dont tell him that haha

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Melwirth

I cannot think of the exact scripture off the top of my head but there is one that says something along the lines of "It is by grace we are saved AFTER all we can do" If we are still here and alive and breathing we have done done everything we can do, we are not saved yet....If you look through the Bible you will see it talk about "salvation" rather then being saved. In this life we have been granted salvation...which is like I said before the process of being saved...ponder that for a min.
And go for it, study that chapter....but one thing I also suggest, pray about it, ask Heavenly Father to help you to understand, you believe in personal revelation right? Having the spirit be able to touch your heart and manifest truth unto you? Well I sure hope you do. Anyways what I am saying is ask in faith and with real intent what those verses and what that chapter means...He will help you.

I've never heard of that verse. The only thing similar I've read is that we'll receive the crown of life after all that we've done...but that's not because we're not saved until then, it's just because we don't get the actual crown until we're in Heaven. Salvation doesn't have to mean a long process of being saved. That is one definition, but another one is "the state of being saved", meaning that you are already saved and in that state. It has 4 different dictionary meanings.

And yes, I always pray for understanding before reading the bible (or anything related to God). I'm going to have to actually research the background and history of this chapter too, because I want to know what made Paul write that and what exactly he was referring to. My youth pastor has this really neat history book of the bible, so I'm going to check there and see if it mentions it. It has the history of every chapter, so it should.