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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Few questions about religion. - May 13th 2014, 06:07 PM

So, about religion. First, is there any proof that there is a god? I don't see a god myself, so it kinda lost it's credibility here, but it can still happen. (Well, I'm an agnostic who is on the fence of christianity)

Also, why do religious people think black and white about people that have other religions/no religion? If a god exsists, then the god should rate the people on good things/intentions themselves, not let 'holier than thou' christians that go to church and shit but don't have godly intentions/thoughts about it. It grinds my gears.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 14th 2014, 08:05 PM

Your first question is pretty ambiguous, but I've personally never seen satisfactory evidence for what I consider a god to exist. Some people consider religious texts to be evidence, but since they're stories written by humans, I don't find them convincing.

Your second question is a little more stereotypical, so I'd discourage that. If you're being driven away from religion by that, I'd suggest thinking a little more carefully about your actual beliefs (which may well be atheistic), not just people who irritate you. Religious people are normally perfectly lovely, normal people - everyone has some annoying traits.
As far as "God should..." goes, this might well be a reason for you to abandon Christianity, since that's not really what the Bible (upon which Christianity is primarily based) says. You can have your own "personal" god if you like, although I don't see that as necessary. As far as I can see, you may as well live morally simply because it's nice to, and helpful for everyone - why should you need an incentive, ie. avoiding the disappointment of a god?


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 15th 2014, 02:29 AM

1) I suppose it depends on who you ask, but if you're wanting concrete proof, no, you won't find any. If religion could be proven we wouldn't have the debates we do about it. The belief in God is largely based on faith- you believe it is there even though you CAN'T see it or prove it. Many people have a problem with this system, as you might guess. Some people don't. It's my personal belief that neither is wrong and people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe, as long as they extend the same courtesy to others.

Personally, I don't have a problem with faith. I do believe in God, but that's the result of my own personal beliefs. My experiences have led me to believe in God, but frankly I don't care whether or not someone else does, so long as they let me and mine alone and I'll do the same to them.

2) I think it's very dangerous to say "why do _____ people" do anything, especially for religion. Religion covers a very, very broad spectrum; people within the same religion tend to think and feel and even believe differently. To paint every single person with such a broad brushstroke as "religious people" and attribute one behavior to ALL of them is a huge fallacy. Not ALL religious people think black and white about religious vs. non-religious folks. Heck, a billion people can't even agree on what one book says.

I'm not making a very good case for religion, but then again, it's not my job to convince someone that they should believe for or against God. I think people should make up their own minds. I think that, no matter what, religion is a complicated topic and there are not absolutes. If you're someone who needs absolutes, then religion is probably not going to work well for you, because it does take faith, assuming you're talking about Christianity. Some Eastern-based religions are not quite so faith-based, and also have great principles on life. I'm Christian, if you want to pick my closest belief system, but I find a lot of value in Buddhist teachings, and recommend looking into them.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 15th 2014, 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
So, about religion. First, is there any proof that there is a god? I don't see a god myself, so it kinda lost it's credibility here, but it can still happen. (Well, I'm an agnostic who is on the fence of christianity)
First of all, you're question is phrased in correctly, and it is important to point this out. What is wrong with it? The word "proof." Proof is something that is implied to be solely for an individual. When you ask, "Is there any proof that there is a god?" You are somewhat asking, "Is god provable to myself?" To which you answered your own question, "I don't see a god myself." What you are, in fact, asking (or, rather, should be asking) is: "Is there evidence that there is a god?"

This question then becomes very ambiguous. What is evidence? If you are asking for evidence in terms of scientific evidence, no there is none. The Christian Bible in 2 Corinthians 4 states that Christians are to focus on what is unseen because what is unseen is eternal, and god is eternal. Therefore, the modern definition of science cannot account for the existence of god, because he cannot be tested, he is not falsifiable, and he is not of this realm, according to the new testament.

If you are asking the question as to whether there is a god or not, that is, any god(s), the question, again, is about the same. Science can only examine what is available to us, meaning, whatever happened prior to the big bang are only hypothesis. Therefore, in a sense, the explanation of god prior to the big bang is perhaps just as rational as a hypothesis than anything else. Why? Because whatever reason we come up with, there will always need to be a causation for that reason, so why can't that reason be intelligent? In my years of wavering between atheism, agnosticism, and theism, I've discovered that you cannot claim anything beyond the big bang that is any more rational than anything else. And I could go into more depth into this, but I think if you legitimately think about it, you'll see what I mean.

The main quarrel I think I have with the idea of a god is this idea of infinitude. I know of nothing intelligent that is eternal, and because of that it is hard to come to terms with a belief in a deity. When it comes to organized religion, I just find that god(s) is/are typically hypocritical. In the New Testament god is described as a god of peace and love, but then in the end he is going to torture people for eternity. It doesn't make sense. The god of the Old Testament seems bi-polar to me. However, I am willing to admit that if there is a god, maybe I just don't understand him. There is a portion of me that wants to believe in something that is forgiving, loving, merciful, and just. However, at the same time, the idea is simply terrifying to me and so to get on with my life I have to reject those ideas.

I mean, it'd be great it god is forgiving, loving, merciful, and just, but then you have to think, when does that forgiveness end? When does that love end? Where does his mercy end? Is Hitler forgivable? Are molesters? Are murderers? God loves them, and will forgive them? To me that's where justice is desirable because they will be paid for what they did. However, justice is only desirable so long as it isn't used against you. For example, what does that mean for me? What about all those times I lied? I stole? I had an affair. I've hurt a lot of people. I am not forgiving, I am not generous, etc. So then will god forgive me? Where does his forgiveness end and begin? It wouldn't be just to just let me off the hook. And so I find the idea of god's nature contradicting. If he is unconditionally loving, forgiving, merciful, and just, those ideas are contradicting to my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
Also, why do religious people think black and white about people that have other religions/no religion? If a god exsists, then the god should rate the people on good things/intentions themselves, not let 'holier than thou' christians that go to church and shit but don't have godly intentions/thoughts about it. It grinds my gears.
It's because Christian's believe that if you believe in Jesus that you are forgiven and that everything that Jesus did with good intentions was imputed into them, so that god now sees the Christian's as Jesus, and not as being sinful.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 15th 2014, 07:59 PM

Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.

And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.

Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"
   
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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 15th 2014, 08:22 PM

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Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence.
Not really. That would simply be using observation to collect a significant amount of evidence that we exist. Proof is mathematical (for instance, I can prove Pythagoras' Theorem, I cannot prove the theory of gravity).

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But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.
Would you mind recapping the bit about "no doubt of Allah's existence" with the knowledge that not everyone on the planet is a Muslim, and I seriously doubt the existence of Allah?
Also, Earth is pretty lovely and everything, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's being used to sustain everyone. Could you really argue that it is?

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.
...although if you did, I would be less sceptical of the existence of a God.

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And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.
Oooooold argument. This one has been used and refuted to death. Its major flaw is that no-one has ever suggested that an act of nature might create something designed for a specific purpose, like a car.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim View Post
Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"
Well, there would be the scientific evidence, and since you're all for observation (even to the point of saying it proves things without doubt), that might be something you'd be interested in. Here, take a look at a bit of the evidence, explained in the easiest way possible. "The Big Bang" theory may not be perfect, but the point is that it's being worked on and refined as we type. And the substantial scientific consensus and pile of evidence supporting it (red shift evidences a moving universe, CBMR shows residual energy from the "big bang" point, etc.).

Incidentally, as nice as the Moon also is, you're saying "look at the moon" and then talk about the universe. Our universe is vast. Bigger than we can see, far bigger, and the light has had almost 14bn years to get here. Considering how utterly insignificant we as a species, infact even our galaxy (within which are thousands of solar systems, all with planets, possibly even more life) is, do you really think it could possibly all have been designed for us? It could, I admit, but I find that unlikely, and a highly unnecessary invention. I've lived believing religious explanations, and I've lived understanding scientific explanations, and trust me - science makes more sense, has more purpose, and ultimately is far more believable (even if, I'm afraid, it can't give you all the answers).


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 07:25 AM

Thankyou for asking me

The ultimate proof that Allah is real,can be seen through all of Allah creations in this universe Skies and earth could not be exist without its creator Moon,sun and earth would break to each other if there is no ruler of its movement.Allah moves the wind and creates cloud and makes the rain.Without rain and water and sun light all alive creatures will die Allah created mountains as the nails of this earth so we do not feel the movement of this earth.
Each and everything has it creator.Even the mobile phone you use or take an example of teenhelp was created by someone.
And now if you want to talk about science,let me give you a website.Hope you will find it useful

http://www.islamreligion.com/category/34/

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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 09:57 AM

(1) If you want valid proof of God's existence, well there is none. Believing in God depends entirely on faith. Some people are brought up to believe in God and they go on doing it all through their lives. Some start believing in God after incidences that happen to them or in their life.
Born in a traditional Hindu family and educated in a convent school, I always had this question about God's existence. But a few incidences (I would rather not share them here) made me start believing that God is there. I cannot give you a valid proof about God's existence and I cannot force you to believe in God. It all depends on you and your choices and faith. Yes, nobody has seen God, but yes, I feel that there is God and yes, I do believe in God.

(2) I am not a christian, like I mentioned above. But, I don't really think everyone who believes in God or follows a particular religion has negative feeling about people from other religion or people who chose not to follow any religion.
Yes, there are extremists everywhere,in every field. People with the attitude that only their beliefs are correct and the world is wrong. But, you cannot change their thinking. So, it is not all 'religious people' as you say.

I know my posts do not answer your question, but I don't think anyone can give you a valid proof/answer. One more thing I would like to add is, I always believed that God is one and people see him and call him with a different name.
So well, yeah, that is it.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 10:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
So, about religion. First, is there any proof that there is a god? I don't see a god myself, so it kinda lost it's credibility here, but it can still happen. (Well, I'm an agnostic who is on the fence of christianity)

Also, why do religious people think black and white about people that have other religions/no religion? If a god exsists, then the god should rate the people on good things/intentions themselves, not let 'holier than thou' christians that go to church and shit but don't have godly intentions/thoughts about it. It grinds my gears.
Religion isn't a science. It's not based on reasons and proofs, it's based on dogmas, in other words : on believing that words in Holy Bible are truth. There was a lot of studies about if God exists or doesn't, but the answers and opinions are as numerous as the number of people taking part. I personally am not a believer of any religion (I do not accept a spiritual guard of any kind over me),

Quote:
Also, why do religious people think black and white about people that have other religions/no religion? If a god exsists, then the god should rate the people on good things/intentions themselves, not let 'holier than thou' christians that go to church and shit but don't have godly intentions/thoughts about it. It grinds my gears.
That's the sad truth. However, notice that it's only an opinion of people who do believe. It's the same with the somehow notorious "God haters fags" saying that is so passionately used by christians to prove to homosexual people why are they so wrong. Bible is not to be taken literally. It's full of symbols.

Also, I guess the reason why christians are so uneasy towards other religions (or lack of faith altogether) are Ten Commandments, especially the first one
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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 03:54 PM

A friend recently gave me a pic of Lot's wife, who became a statue of salt. That statue exists in real life and for me, it's evidence that it is indeed possible.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 04:27 PM

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A friend recently gave me a pic of Lot's wife, who became a statue of salt. That statue exists in real life and for me, it's evidence that it is indeed possible.
While I am skeptical, having seen the picture myself, even if it is Lot's wife and not something natural, all it does is provide evidence for Abrahamic religions, not solely Christianity.


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Re: Few questions about religion. - May 16th 2014, 04:29 PM

There is no evidence of god. There isn't even evidence that it may likely be true. The more scientific discoveries that are made in the field of physics, the more it seems like the specific god-claims that are being made are not true. Of course, you can't disprove a god, but you don't need to. The burden of truth lies in the theist's hands.

As for the second question, people like to feel superior to others, and sometimes their holy book gives them a justification for that. Yes, it's awful at times, but if people can justify a prejudice they hold by claiming an absolute morality from their holy book, they will.
   
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